HDR Gaming

Is it known how many dimming zones TVs with local dimming use, has someone done a hardware teardown to find out? :D

For some reason, the manufacturers' own marketing material isn't bragging about this - which I find stupid, but I'm not a marketer, so... :p

Detailed reviews will normally say. rtings would probably have that info. It varies depending on the tv.
 
The 100" Sony ZD9 holds the title for having the most at over 1000 of individually dimmible direct LEDs
ZD9, isn't that last year's model? If so, this year's has no more, and possibly fewer? :p Welp, I guess there's a reason! :)
 
ZD9, isn't that last year's model? If so, this year's has no more, and possibly fewer? :p Welp, I guess there's a reason! :)
Well Sony thinks ZD9 is so advanced they're still pitching it as their flagship TV even above the new Sony Oled A1E, but 2018 will see a new model for sure and you an bet your ass they would increase the zone count:). Expensive Sony is gonna expensive Sony.
 
Games Look Bad, Part 1: HDR and Tone Mapping
"In order: Battlefield 1, Uncharted: Lost Legacy, Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare, and Horizon Zero Dawn. HZD is a particular offender in the “terrible tone map” category and it’s one I could point to all day long. And so we run head first into the problem that plagues games today and will drive this series throughout: at first glance, these are all very pretty 2017 games and there is nothing obviously wrong with the screenshots. But all of them feel videogamey and none of them would pass for a film or a photograph. Or even a reasonably good offline render. Or a painting. They are instantly recognizable as video games, because only video games try to pass off these trashy contrast curves as aesthetically pleasing. These images look like a kid was playing around in Photoshop and maxed the Contrast slider. Or maybe that kid was just dragging the Curves control around at random."

https://ventspace.wordpress.com/2017/10/20/games-look-bad-part-1-hdr-and-tone-mapping/

Before they doing HDR they should imrpove their SDR Tone Mapping and contrast curves. Games like Wildlands do look more realistic and less gamey to me. I think the contrast curves are also much better in GT Sports than in GT5.
 
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Alright ... Before reading the article/blog and assuming anything, I have a few questions. Do not take them as attacks, as they are not. I want to get an Idea for what level of confidence should their words be given.

Who is(are) the author(s)? In other words, why should anyone listen to what they have to say? With a URL of "Vent Space" is it just the venting ramblings of a gamer?

They make a few broad statements and I still have no idea why I should believe them. I only see some subtle hints at being "in the industry", but what's considered "in the industry"?

EDIT: Doing more digging and finding some information on twitter:

The article's author, Promit, described themselves as
Game dev in Neuroscience @ Johns Hopkins Medicine, Max & Haley LLC. Built SlimDX, SlimTune. Moderator at http://GameDev.Net .

Does being a "game dev" in Neuroscience qualify their statements as definitive?

I started reading the article/blogs from Part 0. I think everyone should start reading from there. It doesn't seem to answer my previous questions, but it might help everyone understanding the author's goal and why certain things are said and why certain other things aren't.

Part 0 -- https://ventspace.wordpress.com/2017/10/20/games-look-bad-part-0-explanation-and-defense/

I’m about to start a series of blog posts called Games Look Bad. Before I start throwing stones from my glass house over here, I wanted to offer an explanation of what I’m doing and a defense of why I’m doing it.

There’s no doubt that we’ve seen a sustained and significant period of improvement in real-time computer graphics over the past three decades. We’ve made significant advances in nearly every aspect of visual look and feel, drawing quite a bit from the film industry in the process. So why the heck do most games look so bad?

Games are technically much more sophisticated than ever before, but I’m going to stake out a claim: aesthetically something has gone quite wrong, and the products don’t live up to the hype. Show me a next-gen, cutting edge game and I will show you an image that no competent film industry professional would ever deem acceptable. Why not? The answer lives at the crossroads of art and technology, a strange neglected intermediary which we in the industry tend to avoid talking about. Particularly in the last ten years, several new techniques have appeared that are foundational to practically every high end game on the market. These are well documented from a technical standpoint, and it’s generally assumed that graphics programmers who have stayed current are fluent in at least the basic goals and implementations of these techniques, if not the finer points of them. I won’t labor to build a complete list, but you likely know them: normal maps, HDR/tonemaps, physically based shading, volumetrics, DoF/bokeh, etc.
 
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Games Look Bad, Part 1: HDR and Tone Mapping
"In order: Battlefield 1, Uncharted: Lost Legacy, Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare, and Horizon Zero Dawn. HZD is a particular offender in the “terrible tone map” category and it’s one I could point to all day long. And so we run head first into the problem that plagues games today and will drive this series throughout: at first glance, these are all very pretty 2017 games and there is nothing obviously wrong with the screenshots. But all of them feel videogamey and none of them would pass for a film or a photograph. Or even a reasonably good offline render. Or a painting. They are instantly recognizable as video games, because only video games try to pass off these trashy contrast curves as aesthetically pleasing. These images look like a kid was playing around in Photoshop and maxed the Contrast slider. Or maybe that kid was just dragging the Curves control around at random."

https://ventspace.wordpress.com/2017/10/20/games-look-bad-part-1-hdr-and-tone-mapping/

Before they doing HDR they should imrpove their SDR Tone Mapping and contrast curves. Games like Wildlands do look more realistic and less gamey to me. I think the contrast curves are also much better in GT Sports than in GT5.

I can get behind this article, but he should have used Destiny 2 as his example of an offender. Playing the demo (SDR) made my eyes hurt, and my display is calibrated.
 
It's an interesting post and has some very valid thoughts, but it kinda misses the bigger picture.

In my mind, what he's complaining about isn't so much the result of bad tone mapping (although it's certainly is a contributing factor) but, to my eye, more a result of systemic lighting and material imbalance.

This is *easily* the hardest thing to get right when rendering at high dynamic range. If your ambient light intensity is not balanced to the brightness of the sky, or your materials are not in natural PBR ranges (*really tough problems!*) Then no amount of tone mapping wizardry will compensate, it'll look off - contrast will be off. It sounds weird, but it's incredibly easy to be off by a factor of, say, 3x, 6x or even more and you don't really notice it, that is, until you fix it and then you wonder how on earth you thought it looked ok.

(Perceptually, for something to look ~ twice as bright to your eye it has to be ~ 6x brighter in real terms)

Yet even getting it right isn't going to look filmic. Movies are very rarely shot 'raw' lighting wise. You always have fill lights, rim lights, etc etc. And often times it's to balance lights and darks. Most amature videography struggles with this balance because of the lack of lighting control.

On top of that is exposure control. This is an often overlooked aspect of tone mapping but it really does have a huge impact. It's something I've worked hard on - very difficult problem.

Further, it comes down to not general technical limitations too. A big part of the reason you see strongly contrasted games is simply because that's the 'easy' way to add the required visual cues for depth and structural perception. It's why games abuse specular so much, as it's a really easy way to define a surface, it's also why ssao is so popular - an artificial contrast boost.

Ultimately, in my view, to solve this you need a really good directional light bake or real-time indirect system that combines with highly accurate materials and accurate light intensities going in to a good exposure and toning system.

In almost all these areas most games have a metric arse tonne of work to do. Some are more ahead than others, while some do really well in one or two then completely faceplant on others (I recall BF1 having possibly the most painfully bad exposure system I've experienced, yet some great material work).

Don't get me started on destiny 2......



It'll take time.

I find that visual dev is an odd thing, where the more wrong things are, the more you accept how it looks and the more you can overlook staggeringly broken things. But once you start getting more accurate you start to enter a lighting/material uncanny valley, where making one thing better suddenly makes everything else look wrong or worse. Paradoxically improving things can make the whole game feel less cohesive or brings other limitations into shaper focus.
 
Why should games need to look like movies or photographs? What's wrong with them looking like games?

My biggest gripe with Uncharted 4 was the lack of vibrant contrast compared to previous games in the series. Now that I've completed it, whenever I play it again, I play it with a photo mode filter on.

Though I've yet to play it (I'm waiting for the inevitable Game of the Year version,) one of the things I like most about Horizon Zero Dawn is the way the colours pop.

Gamers need to stop being so insecure: gaming's its own medium, and it has its own quirks. It doesn't need to look like a film because it bloody well isn't one.

How often do you hear of people in the film industry trying to make their content more game-like? Never, because they don't have an inferiority complex.
 
Of course, he exaggerates and rants too much. I just wanted to give more thought in the general subject itself. However, from my point of view many video games should be well-balanced in all areas. Except for space areas where the contrasts are much higher.
 
Why should games need to look like movies or photographs? What's wrong with them looking like games?

My biggest gripe with Uncharted 4 was the lack of vibrant contrast compared to previous games in the series. Now that I've completed it, whenever I play it again, I play it with a photo mode filter on.

Though I've yet to play it (I'm waiting for the inevitable Game of the Year version,) one of the things I like most about Horizon Zero Dawn is the way the colours pop.

Gamers need to stop being so insecure: gaming's its own medium, and it has its own quirks. It doesn't need to look like a film because it bloody well isn't one.

How often do you hear of people in the film industry trying to make their content more game-like? Never, because they don't have an inferiority complex.

Has anyone complained that Horizon Zero Dawn or Witcher 3 didn’t look photorealistic?
 
I don't think the point is necessarily that games need to look exactly like photo or film, but image composition in terms of contrast is well understood technically and artistically in those worlds. That's a lot of history and knowledge the game industry can learn from. Of course as Graham has thoughtfully posted above, the solutions are not easy.
 
Why should games need to look like movies or photographs? What's wrong with them looking like games?

My biggest gripe with Uncharted 4 was the lack of vibrant contrast compared to previous games in the series. Now that I've completed it, whenever I play it again, I play it with a photo mode filter on.

Though I've yet to play it (I'm waiting for the inevitable Game of the Year version,) one of the things I like most about Horizon Zero Dawn is the way the colours pop.

Gamers need to stop being so insecure: gaming's its own medium, and it has its own quirks. It doesn't need to look like a film because it bloody well isn't one.

How often do you hear of people in the film industry trying to make their content more game-like? Never, because they don't have an inferiority complex.
Well said. Seriously I could have written exactly that. (If my english was better of course)

I don't think the point is necessarily that games need to look exactly like photo or film, but image composition in terms of contrast is well understood technically and artistically in those worlds. That's a lot of history and knowledge the game industry can learn from. Of course as Graham has thoughtfully posted above, the solutions are not easy.
Yes for the knowledge about composition, constrasts and such. But which recent movie has visible grain filter and chromatic aberration abnormalities ?

The image quality in recent movies I have watched is exceptional. Those movies look more realistic than many high budget videogames that try to simulate films, well mainly how they looked 50 years ago.

Contrasts, perspective, focus on important characters, story, flow of narration and emotions . Yes videogames can learn that (and more) from the film industry. But film grain, lens distortion, chromatic aberration applied in a videogame ? That's not some rare and valuable lessons learned from the venerable movie industry. Those are just old tech limitations that basically don't exist nowadays in modern movies.

Sorry for derailing the subject...
 
Yah, I don't think the guys blog has anything to do with grain, chromatic abberation or lens distortion. It's purely about contrast. I do agree with you that i'd prefer games avoid those things, with some exceptions where it makes sense.
 
turns out the perception of picture quailty, and HDR changes a ton depending on what you are accustomed to. At least thats what happened to me.

long story short

Accustomed to Samsung VA panel with high contrast ratio and nice color -> My LG UH610T looks like shit
Now i accustomed to LG IPS monitor with ~1000:1 contrast ratio, calibrated color and over 99% adobeRGB -> My LG UH610T looks nice, and HDR looks much nicer

on the other hand, the washed-out PSVR screen now looks good enough! (it didnt have true black, all blacks are cut to dark grey)
 
Having a low contrast tv may take the edge off some games. Video content will be mastered with a nice balanced contrast.
 
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All I want is a 1080p HDR monitor as a stopgap, but at least maybe 700 nits ... so many lazy hdr monitors that are basically sdr brightness. And all of the ones that are nearing spec cost the same as an actual tv
 
This is *easily* the hardest thing to get right when rendering at high dynamic range. If your ambient light intensity is not balanced to the brightness of the sky, or your materials are not in natural PBR ranges (*really tough problems!*) Then no amount of tone mapping wizardry will compensate, it'll look off - contrast will be off. It sounds weird, but it's incredibly easy to be off by a factor of, say, 3x, 6x or even more and you don't really notice it, that is, until you fix it and then you wonder how on earth you thought it looked ok.

I have this uninformed suspission that while most modern games claim to be PBR that just means they'v implemented the latest CGI inspired lighting/shading models and a couple other "easy" features, but a lot of their content is still significantly eyeballed. In my opinion, few games today manage to look as consistent as the Order, MGSV, and Battlefront 1. And even GTAV, despite having a more cartoony feel to its materials (can't really put a finger on what about it makes it so) is one of the most consistent looking games I've ever seen. Even when things don't look exactly realistic, they always sit well within the scene, and surfaces just look alive and pleasing in that game and I don't know why...
 
If there is anything I've learnt it's that I have no idea why different people think certain things look good, myself included. I also find very few people can actually express why they like the look of something. :p


In the case of GTA, they do a couple of things really well: they have an excellent global AO bake, they balance their sun light colour and intensity to the sky/ambient really well (hard to do!) And finally they have really good exposure control. I think it's the first two that give the game it's solid feel, and combined with the exposure control that helps their materials feel good.

If you want an example of a game that does all these things really, really wrong, just play the opening missions in destiny 2 where you in the wilderness.
 
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