Best 4K HDR TV's for One X, PS4 Pro [2017-2020]

[London Geezer]

OLED-like blacks? No, just stop yourself. I give it to you, the ZD9 is an impressive display.

Infinity : 1 is OLED. 4322 : 1 is the ZD9. With Local Dimming the ZD9 is at 7976 : 1 measured. The ZD9 also suffers with regards to viewing angles (in fact, even a small change to the viewing angle gives a color shift) and gray uniformity. Color gamut is also vastly superior on the LG OLED which can show deeper greens compared to the ZD9. The LG OLED will suffer with extreme highlights because of the ABL but the overall color gamut is measurably better. The image quality is measurably better.

Worse motion blur and input lag for the ZD9.

Lastly, the ZD9 also suffers more from reflections than the LG OLED in all light conditions.

Have you seen and used each set in person, with HDR games or HDR heavy content?

Didn't think so.

That's really all I'm talking about and the apparent main topic of this thread.

Also: relax sweetheart, this is not one of those forums.

 

[ultragpu]

OLED-like blacks? No, just stop yourself. I give it to you, the ZD9 is an impressive display.

Infinity : 1 is OLED. 4322 : 1 is the ZD9. With Local Dimming the ZD9 is at 7976 : 1 measured. The ZD9 also suffers with regards to viewing angles (in fact, even a small change to the viewing angle gives a color shift) and gray uniformity. Color gamut is also vastly superior on the LG OLED which can show deeper greens compared to the ZD9. The LG OLED will suffer with extreme highlights because of the ABL but the overall color gamut is measurably better. The image quality is measurably better.

Worse motion blur and input lag for the ZD9.

Lastly, the ZD9 also suffers more from reflections than the LG OLED in all light conditions.

Near black detail is still better on the ZD9 as black crush is still present on the Oled. Do you spend 99% of your time viewing from an off axis? Color gamut is not vastly superior at all, it's 5% difference at max and is also offset by the superior color saturation at high luminosity. The overall SDR image quality might be better on the Oled but in HDR ZD9 smokes it.
Also 99% of people don't care about motion blur, reflection or off angle viewing but they do freak out if your tv screen suddenly dims from 700 nits to 150 nits when watching hockey, watching snow, clouds or anything brightly lit outdoor.

 

[Pressure]

Who games with the lights on?

Exactly, so no reason for max brightness.

 

[DieH@rd]

And as for "perfect blacks", HDR movies are graded to be viewed at room environment that is illuminated with 5 nits. That is enough environmental light to provide awesome blacks to TVs that supports local dimming.

 

[wco81]

OLED-like blacks? No, just stop yourself. I give it to you, the ZD9 is an impressive display.

Infinity : 1 is OLED. 4322 : 1 is the ZD9. With Local Dimming the ZD9 is at 7976 : 1 measured. The ZD9 also suffers with regards to viewing angles (in fact, even a small change to the viewing angle gives a color shift) and gray uniformity. Color gamut is also vastly superior on the LG OLED which can show deeper greens compared to the ZD9. The LG OLED will suffer with extreme highlights because of the ABL but the overall color gamut is measurably better. The image quality is measurably better.

Worse motion blur and input lag for the ZD9.

Lastly, the ZD9 also suffers more from reflections than the LG OLED in all light conditions.

The criticisms I've heard of the LG OLEDs are that the motion processing isn't the best. That's why there was a lot of hope that Sony would do a better job with OLED.

Black frame insertion might be one approach but current OLED panels might not be bright enough, especially with the emphasis on HDR and overall brightness.

Also heard that OLEDs crush blacks.

LG is making investments in new plants and considering new designs. One approach might be a change to "top emission" in 3-4 years, which should result in greater brightness and efficiency.

4k HDR content, especially Dolby Vision, is still scarce. It's mostly streaming content now. So there isnt a great hurry to buy equipment now, unless you can get a great deal. Plus you got things like HDMI 2.1 on the horizon, which could be messy.

 

[Rangers]

It's the same arguments in PC components though. If you wait there is always something better around the corner.

Look at it this way, me coming from 1080P/SDR, at least whatever I get will be vastly better looking than what I had, right? And maybe in 3-4 years worry about whatever is out then.

BTW, the TCL 607P got an update that enable local dimming in game mode now. So that's pretty cool. I dont think that the input lag in game mode with local dimming on has been tested professionally yet. I'm assuming it will be good.

 

[wco81]

Except that they've been producing this kind of OLEDs in large TV sizes for maybe a couple of years from now?

So the improvement curve may be better than PC tech.

 

[Orion]

I wanted true quantum dot display, but seeing as we're getting AR headsets within the near future, if the quality is high enough first or second gen AR headsets could make most any screen obsolete.

Given that I think a cheap set like the tcl 607 with high ratings is best for now.

 

[RobertR1]

My comment was tongue in cheek, but not entirely untrue.

The problem with OLEDs today is burn in and ABL. Both of which I've seen first hand and are directly a killer for gamers.

I wouldn't worry about burn in, but I did get very worried when I saw a few sets at John Lewis with very apparent patches caused by static images. Those sets are left on al day with static images so not surprised, and most users won't use them like that. But as a former plasma owner, I still have my worries.

By far the most important thing to worry about with OLEDs for gamers, and HDR gaming especially, is the Automatic Brightness Limiter. This is the system that limits light output according to what percentage of the screen is white. And this is what still needs to improve a lot, because gamers will play a lot of stuff where large portions of the screen are bright (especially in HDR!), and unfortunately on any OLED those will be noticeably dull. I couldn't get over the constant change in total brightness whenever a menu came up (white menus) or whenever a lot of bright stuff was on screen.

That's the real killer at the moment. I'm sure that when that's fixed, I'll change TV again.

By comparison, a TV like the ZD9 will pretty much always output the same light level regardless. While still giving you those OLED-like blacks.

My opinion, obvs.

The 2017 LG's have no ABL upto 150 nits which is quite good for most viewing. So you can watch Sky or Apple ads in full screen and the screen calibrated upto 150nits won't dim.

From there you with HDR highlights, where the TV can goto upto 700+nits. Depending on the length of the HDR and it's overall percentage of screen, the APL will balance it out.

If the HDR was sustained, you'll see a lowering in the overall APL.

ABL and APL are different.

ABL = automatic brightness limited to control the power draw.

APL = average picture level which is the overall brightness of the scene that can be lowered to retain the highlights of HDR. So the overall "sdr" portion of the picture is lowered while keeping the HDR highlights higher. It's not exactly like that but close.

Burn-in will always have a level of worry in this tech but mainly an issue in limited use cases and without proper care. It's not set and forget on CNN for 8+ hours a day tech and people shouldn't spend the extra for it.

If someone is really interested in getting deep dives, here's a thread dedicated just to the OLED tech: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...-oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread.html

 

[RobertR1]

There is a UK TV shootout happening on August 13th ran by Vincent from HDTVtest.co.uk

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/2017-shootout-201707244487.htm

I'll be attending that test in person so I'm quite excited and looking forward to sharing my feedback. This is perfect for me as I'm in the market for a new set.

As the test takes into account multiple scenario (not just critical viewing) I'm looking forward to seeing how the different sets handle daytime reflections, image processing from less than perfect sources, upscaling and motion handling.

 

[dobwal]

The 2017 LG's have no ABL upto 150 nits which is quite good for most viewing. So you can watch Sky or Apple ads in full screen and the screen calibrated upto 150nits won't dim.

From there you with HDR highlights, where the TV can goto upto 700+nits. Depending on the length of the HDR and it's overall percentage of screen, the APL will balance it out.

If the HDR was sustained, you'll see a lowering in the overall APL.

ABL and APL are different.

ABL = automatic brightness limited to control the power draw.

APL = average picture level which is the overall brightness of the scene that can be lowered to retain the highlights of HDR. So the overall "sdr" portion of the picture is lowered while keeping the HDR highlights higher. It's not exactly like that but close.

Burn-in will always have a level of worry in this tech but mainly an issue in limited use cases and without proper care. It's not set and forget on CNN for 8+ hours a day tech and people shouldn't spend the extra for it.

If someone is really interested in getting deep dives, here's a thread dedicated just to the OLED tech: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...-oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread.html

Makes you wondered how much or what type effort devs are putting into HDR during the development process. With film, the mastering process accounts for ABL. The Sony BVM X300 has an over range indicator when ABL is triggered so colorists know when to back off.

But do devs even use reference displays like the BVM X300 and games arent exactly cinema content. Games are interactive and gamers control the camera. "Look at the brightness of that specular highlight!!!...Let me put my eyeball on it!!!". How does a dev account for that in relation to the ABL of our TVs?

 

[RobertR1]

Makes you wondered how much or what type effort devs are putting into HDR during the development process. With film, the mastering process accounts for ABL. The Sony BVM X300 has an over range indicator when ABL is triggered so colorists know when to back off.

But do devs even use reference displays like the BVM X300 and games arent exactly cinema content. Games are interactive and gamers control the camera. "Look at brightness of that specular highlight!!!...Let me put my eyeball on it!!!". How does a dev account for that in relation to the ABL of our TVs?

I doubt most devs do. Considering so many games have black crush, poor shadow handling or lack any consistency in color palette, there's not much hope they will put effort into learning HDR best practices. I'm sure you'll have a few nice examples but normal implementations will likely be overly exaggerated and distracting.

I thinking an even more annoying version of the lens flare effect in the battlefield series. Let's hope I'm wrong.

 

[DieH@rd]

But do devs even use reference displays like the BVM X300 and games arent exactly cinema content.

I don't think so. At best they are using Z9D with its "professional" preset that showcases tonemapping clipping.

 

[dobwal]

Has anyone tried playing back UHD BluRay using Dolby Atmos (or Windows Sonic) for Headphones via the Game Controller on the One S? I can't imagine it would have any issues, but was just curious.

Also wanted to add the Harmony remote control over the xbox works nicely. Works nicely with Amaxon Echo/Alexa too.

Tried Mad Max but I don't think it's working properly. The Xbox S is displaying True HD as the output not Atmos. The Dolby Atmos for headphone can be downloaded as a free 30 day trial. You have to download the Dolby Access app first then download the headphone app through it. Dolby Access does come with 4 Atmos for headphones demos.

I loaded up Netflix because it has some Atmos content. With the headphones plugged in, Atmos is available and unplugging the headphones drops it to 5.1. So the Xbox S seems to be recognizing and delivering Atmos under that scenario.

However, either DAfH isn't working properly (there have been reports of this) or its performance is utterly dismal. Outside of it basically sounding louder, clearer and crisper, it doesn't seem to offer a compelling surround experience.

I used my SteelSeries Arctis 3 and my son's Beats ear buds to compare the DAfH demos on the S with same demos offered on YouTube through an iPad. No real difference in terms of surround sound. Left, right? Yes. Above, front, below and behind? I am not hearing it. Maybe I'm surround sound impaired. LOL

 

[brunogm]

I think Samsung is being cheap for not using FALD. But in terms of QLED instead of OLED, I think that choice is being dictated by the race up the luminance ladder. Samsung Q series and Sony Z9D because of their brightness resolves details in highlights better than OLED. The 9500 won a shootout last year over OLED because of it. The Samsung was the only TV that could resolve highlight details in a scene master with a 4000 nit display.

Once 8K goes commercial, TCG (tall color gamut) will follow. So get ready for "Full" or "Ultra HDR" as the color gamut will expand upwards (and downwards) as the idealized 10K nit reference displays will be able to display saturated colors at much higher and lower level of luminance than current technology (you know they going to use something other than just 8K to sell these newer higher resolution TVs).

The brighter the TV the more readily it will be able to take advantage of TCG. I guess TV manufacturers will work towards wider colors at lower luminance. But I don't think it's as marketable as brightness. You don't really see them doing it now as WCG already expands color at lower luminance (which OLEDs take better advantage of) but the market seems fixated on 1k, 4k and 10k nits.

Q9s supposedly are already at a max luminance of 2000 nits. And is probably why Sony hasn't completely moved to OLEDs and have one of the brightest TVs on the market with the Z9D.

Still no excuse for not using FALD. It's the one glaring issue (I mean that literally) that's the biggest chink in Samsung's armor.

PQ , HDR10 or Vision only "expand" range for highlights. Thats why the focus on 1k, 4k, 10k nits.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk

 

[RobertR1]

I was at the event. Let met get a few things out of the way which are important. Vincent, Tyler and the Crampton and Moore crew did a phenomenal job at the event. It was an absolute pleasure to be there so thank you all for putting this on and spoiling us!

Outside of Tyler, I was the only American there and as such, I have no British reserve in me. I was happy to ask questions and point things out when something seemed odd. Any oddities were quickly addressed and the having a large array of content made this extremely valuable.

For a TV nerd, this was the perfect opportunity to see the top sets in their settings calibrated by experts.

The sets were (in order of display):
- LG B7 OLED
- PANASONIC EZ1002 OLED
- SONY A1 OLED
- Reference: Sony OLED professional monitor
- SAMSUNG Q9 LCD
- SONY ZD9 LCD

Here are my findings in relation to the main categories:

Best Gaming TV: LG B7 OLED
LG = Low input lag and great punch in HDR. The LG and Sony Z9D were immediate standouts when the feeds came up (winner)
Panasonic = Higher input lag and not as much punch in HDR as the LG
Sony A1E = Input lag dependent on source feed. HDR not as good as LG
Samsung = Game mode had sharpening applied (could be calibrated out?) and HDR implementation heavily favors detail over brightness which reduces it's impact
Sony Z9D = Input lag dependent on source feed. Great HDR (2nd choice)

Best HDR TV: LG B7 OLED
LG = Great in low light HDR. Bright picture HDR is the best among OLED's. Great balance in tone mapping with Dynamic Contrast set to low (winner)
Panasonic = Great in low light HDR, bright picture HDR lacking punch. Tone mapping is a good balance but the lack of HDR punch is clear compared to the LG.
Sony A1E = Good in low light HDR, bright picture HDR lacking punch. Tone mapping is a choice a between Cinema Home and Cinema Pro settings. Both are not great options. Either you get a dim pic or blown out details.
Samsung = Very poor low light HDR performance put this set well behind the others.
Sony Z9D = Ok in low light HDR, bright picture HDR is great. Tone mapping doesn't come into play as much due to the high peak light output the set is capable of. (2nd choice)

Best Living Room TV: LG B7 OLED
LG = With the lights on and still looking for a punch picture with various sources, the LG will do a great job (winner)
Panasonic = Top PQ but the ABL is noticeable compared to the LG (2nd choice)
Sony = PQ on part with LG but ABL performance is the worst out of all the OLED's present
Samsung = Even in daytime viewing the poor black level/dark scene performance is inexcusable
Sony Z9D = Being a FALD set has it's limitations even in a daytime viewing setting. The motion artifacts on the Z9D were quite pronounced which takes it out of the running


Best Home Theater TV: Panasonic EZ1002 OLED
LG = Great all around but it's main benefit a higher peak output is neutralized in a critical viewing environment
Panasonic = The better colors and detail compared to any of other sets made this set standout (Winner)
Sony A1E = PQ similar to LG but smooth gradation is great feature making this a runner up (2nd choice)
Samsung = Absolutely not. There are no positives here.
Sony Z9D = As great as the Sony is (miles better than the Samsung) it's just plainly outmatched by any of the OLED's in a critical viewing environment

Summary: Price being equal, my choice would be the 65inch LG B7. It's top 2 in most categories and when it comes to the future needs of HDR, it pulls away comfortably from the other OLED's. It's ABL not kicking in as often makes it a better choice for SDR PQ consistency also. I was initially going to wait until next year but after having been to this event, I'm placing an order for a 65inch B7 to be calibrated by Vincent. If you have specific use cases or preferences, I'm sure most of the other sets can fit your bill. However, my viewing will be a mix of everything and for that the LG was consistently towards the top.

DV vs HDR10
Vincent made the ultimate sacrifice. He bought 2 copies of the new Power Rangers movie so we can have a comparison! The LG was showing the DV feed and the rest showing the HDR10. In this release, there was an easily noticeable different between DV and HDR10. The DV version had more depth to the picture. However, there was a bit of over saturation which was acknowledged but that didn't impact the 3D depth of the scene delivered by DV.

Random notes:
- All sets were calibrated to 200nits. This was to balance out the light pollution from multiple sets being on at the same time for comparison
- BFI = Flicker from BFI on the Sony and Panasonic was unbearable for me. The LCD's did a good job but the reduction in light output is severe
- Choppy motion on the Panasonic OLED = There was some pull down issues with motion that were fixed by turning on game mode so this is something a firmware update should be able to fix
- Red push on the QLED = I pointed this out before lunch and the team went to work on it. It was improved but still present throughout
- Smooth gradation on the Sony = Vincent showed us instance where the algorithm got confused and decided to remove the detail on tiles of a storefront. However that's something you have to look for. It's a good feature that should be enabled and kept on low

 

[mrcorbo]

@RobertR1

Thanks for sharing. I have some issues with the methodology being used, but the impressions are interesting nonetheless.

 

[RobertR1]

@RobertR1

Thanks for sharing. I have some issues with the methodology being used, but the impressions are interesting nonetheless.

What issues? Happy to take your feedback to the guys so they can improve future events.

Here's details around how the scoring was done:

 

[mrcorbo]

What issues? Happy to take your feedback to the guys so they can improve future events.

My suggestions may not be practical. I'd want the TVs to be isolated or otherwise viewed independently and I'd want them to be anonymized so that the evaluator wouldn't know exactly what they were looking at until the end. A real double-blind scientific test, in other words. Would be difficult, expensive and time-consuming to set up and execute, though.

 

[rabidrabbit]

They should mask the bezels and stands of these tv's for the test to be more reliable, with the sets marked just A to E . For example simple black cardboard masks covering all but the screens while viewing would make such an evaluation a more reliable.
I'm still pretty happy with my 6 year old 1080p Samsung plasma. I wouldn't mind it bening a bit brighter and the ABL is a bit too agressive, but I like the nice motion and pretty good colors and black level after I calibrated it.
If I were shopping for a new TV, I'd probably go for LG B7 OLED as I do still strongly believe current LCD technology and HDR are just marketing gimmicks, just like surround sound and soundbars. Ok, you do get some kind of "surround soundfield" with boundary reflected sounds, but it's just can not match the panning of sounds and accuracy of dedicated speakers.That's just not possible even with the most expensive sets.