Nintendo Switch Technical discussion [SOC = Tegra X1]

So, in an attempt to steer this back into tech discussion. Blizzard said they'd like to bring Overwatch to Switch, but it would prove really challenging. Weather that's because of specs, or because handling 4 platforms would be kind of a nightmare, they didn't really specify. I still think that getting the game running on it is very possible, but I can see why they wouldn't want to (having to deal with so many different systems and specs). Honestly thinking more about it, Diablo III and Hearthstone would be better fits for the Switch. Overwatch has no single player, so shit would be boring on the go unless you could find some good wifi. Diablo and HS on the other hand have offline stuff you can do.

Dragon Quest XI's release was announced for PS4 and 3DS, but still no real word on the Switch version. We know it exists, but I have a feeling we weren't supposed to know it exists. I feel like SE wanted to pull a Rockstar and release it on PS4 and 3DS, then get people to double dip on the Switch version at a later date. I kind of wish companies would stop doing that shit. I'm probably going to end up with all three versions anyway. -_-

Tomorrow is a new Nintendo direct. It's supposed to be focused on ARMs and Splatoon 2, as well as some 3DS stuff. Hopefully they'll tell us a bit more about how online is going to work. Maybe they'll talk more about other upcoming stuff, too.

Overwatch will run on some really old hardware. And it doesn't need a ton of RAM either (it'll run on GPUs with only 512 MB of RAM and will use less than 4 GB of system RAM). Graphical effects will need to be toned down a bit, but I imagine it's more just about supporting an additional platform. Note that while typically Blizzard likes to make all their games available on MacOS, they haven't made a MacOS version of Overwatch either.

Regards,
SB
 
I don't know, Kingdom Hearts 3 and Final Fantasy VII will probably be pushing the systems pretty hard. Snake Pass is kind of a simpler game so it was probably easier to bring over. It'd be cool to see them try to bring those over, just to see if they could. But right now I'd have to say I'm on the doubtful side of that. Would love to be proven wrong, though.


The only reason people bring up snake pass, its because its closest it's been to ps4/xb1, just because it's close doesn't mean anything when we know those machines have produced games that leave snake pass in the dust technically. it really is a very simple looking game, a slow platformer, with nothing going on in the environment , and is sub hd and drops to 20fps for a good amount time later on in the game, that doesn't bode well for switch at all to me, and i think the reason we haven't seen technically impressive thirdparty games get announced is third party don't think it's possible or way to much work. i'm willing to bet almost none of the demanding games on ps4/xb1 will come to switch. the gap is too big and the cpu difference is huge, switch cpu is around 30% of ps4 cpu power.
 
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I agree with bunnybug about the snake pass thing... It's not relevant imo. Cool if UE4 can run on the switch, it doesn't mean that games using it can without problems.
It's like saying, yeah, "I'm eligible to the nba". Cool. Doesn't mean I'll be good. Tell you what, I'll suck hard. Time will tell in the end, but I'm not even surprised about overwatch.

BTW, do we have any info about switch cartridge speed compared to hdd ? Because they're is that too. It's not all about cpu , ram, gpu,...
 
I agree with bunnybug about the snake pass thing... It's not relevant imo. Cool if UE4 can run on the switch, it doesn't mean that games using it can without problems.
It's like saying, yeah, "I'm eligible to the nba". Cool. Doesn't mean I'll be good. Tell you what, I'll suck hard. Time will tell in the end, but I'm not even surprised about overwatch.

BTW, do we have any info about switch cartridge speed compared to hdd ? Because they're is that too. It's not all about cpu , ram, gpu,...

For random access it'll be significantly faster than a console HDD. For sequential transfer speeds it'll either be similar or faster depending on what they use for the carts. But it should be faster there as well,especially as the HDD fills and data starts being read off the much slower inner tracks.

Regards,
SB
 
I agree with bunnybug about the snake pass thing... It's not relevant imo. Cool if UE4 can run on the switch, it doesn't mean that games using it can without problems.

Snake Pass is relative, but its only one game. Its very relative to what we can expect from Indies on the platform, and less clear on what it means for AAA. We know the engine plays well with Switch, shouldn't be a surprise because Epic supported the Tegra X1 back in 2015 with the elemental demo. So box stock Unreal 4 seems to work well on Switch. The question arises far more from AAA developers who will spend lots of resources tweaking the engine and creating their own compute shaders. Indy developers are more likely to simply use the array of options that Unreal 4 offers rather than writing their own custom shaders. Maxwell is going to offer much better performance per flop compared to GCN, but developers have worked around this inefficiency on GCN by implementing compute shaders. AAA developers will do this, an Indie project like Snake Pass? Not so much. Its not that Sumo Digital better optimized Snake Pass for Switch, but that Maxwell has better utilization with less GPU stalls compared to GCN. Flop for flop Maxwell is more efficient compared to GCN. Developers use compute shaders to maximize utilization on GCN, but compute shaders would not be natively supported with Unreal 4, its on the developer to custom write these. So inherently Unreal 4 gets more out if Switch than it does PS4/X1. This is not that relative to AAA developers because they will write their own custom compute shaders for PS4 and X1 to maximize performance.
 
Could they do the same for Switch? I mean write their own shaders? Maybe ones less intensive for the Switch versions of games?
 
Could they do the same for Switch? I mean write their own shaders? Maybe ones less intensive for the Switch versions of games?

Somebody more knowledgable than me would have to detail this, but my cave man understanding is that Maxwell doesn't benefit from compute shaders like GCN because it doesn't have these stalls/lulls that compute shaders fill on GCN. As far as using custom pixel shaders instead of the defaults on Unreal 4, it would start to defeat the purpose of using an off the shelf game engine. Unreal 4 also scales down to mobile, so its pretty easy to take a given scene and scale it from high end PC hardware all the way down to mobile.

https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Platforms/Mobile/Performance/index.html

There is a lot of good info available to read on Unreal 4. Even though Switch is far more capable than your average mobile device, the guidelines for developing on mobile are most likely pretty relevant when taking a PS4/X1 game down to Switch.
 
Snake Pass is relative, but its only one game. Its very relative to what we can expect from Indies on the platform, and less clear on what it means for AAA. We know the engine plays well with Switch, shouldn't be a surprise because Epic supported the Tegra X1 back in 2015 with the elemental demo. So box stock Unreal 4 seems to work well on Switch. The question arises far more from AAA developers who will spend lots of resources tweaking the engine and creating their own compute shaders. Indy developers are more likely to simply use the array of options that Unreal 4 offers rather than writing their own custom shaders. Maxwell is going to offer much better performance per flop compared to GCN, but developers have worked around this inefficiency on GCN by implementing compute shaders. AAA developers will do this, an Indie project like Snake Pass? Not so much. Its not that Sumo Digital better optimized Snake Pass for Switch, but that Maxwell has better utilization with less GPU stalls compared to GCN. Flop for flop Maxwell is more efficient compared to GCN. Developers use compute shaders to maximize utilization on GCN, but compute shaders would not be natively supported with Unreal 4, its on the developer to custom write these. So inherently Unreal 4 gets more out if Switch than it does PS4/X1. This is not that relative to AAA developers because they will write their own custom compute shaders for PS4 and X1 to maximize performance.
Somebody more knowledgable than me would have to detail this, but my cave man understanding is that Maxwell doesn't benefit from compute shaders like GCN because it doesn't have these stalls/lulls that compute shaders fill on GCN. As far as using custom pixel shaders instead of the defaults on Unreal 4, it would start to defeat the purpose of using an off the shelf game engine. Unreal 4 also scales down to mobile, so its pretty easy to take a given scene and scale it from high end PC hardware all the way down to mobile.
Unreal Engine and Unity both support compute shaders and use some compute shaders internally. For example lighting and some high end post effects are done by compute shaders. Unreal Engine also supports async compute, but doesn't extensively use it internally.

Both Nvidia and AMD gain from compute shaders. Compute shaders are used to reduce the amount of busy work (for example reuse data in groupshared memory & perform shared calculations once). However AMD GCN2 gains a bit more from compute shaders than modern Nvidia GPUs. Mostly because GCN2 has bottlenecks with pixel & vertex shaders.

Reasons why compute shaders are important for GCN2:
- Compute shaders use shared L2 cache. GCN2 ROPs have separate non-coherent cache. GCN2 needs cache flushes to read render target produced by pixel shader, but doesn't need one when the data is generated by a compute shader. Thus compute shaders reduce stalls (and BW), especially in post process passes.
- GCN2 has worse vertex shader performance than Maxwell: Techniques such as async compute skinning (DICE presentation) reduce the vertex shader latency.
- GCN2 has worse geometry performance than Maxwell: Techniques such as fine grained compute shader scene culling (also known as "GPU-driven rendering") reduce the number of drawn (but invisible) triangles. Link to DICE presentation: http://www.frostbite.com/2016/03/optimizing-the-graphics-pipeline-with-compute/
- GCN2 is able to interleave graphics & compute tasks freely (inside CUs), a bit like "Hyperthreading". This fills execution stalls. This brings GCN an advantage over Maxwell. Also GCN2 stalls more than Maxwell, so it needs this more (see examples above).

All of the listed techniques also slightly improve performance on Nvidia Maxwell (except for async compute, it needs Pascal) and all other modern GPUs.

Unreal Engine and Unity need to support wide range of hardware. Some without compute shader support. GPU-driven rendering and compute shared based animation systems are invasive changes, that require big changes to engine infrastructure and potential trade-offs in flexibility. You can't simple plug them in as simple on/off alternatives. If you need to support wide range of hardware and wide range of needs (mobiles, laptops with iGPUs, high end desktops, Chinese internet cafes, movie production, 90/120 fps VR), you are better off using more traditional techniques.

Obviously AA/AAA developers targeting consoles and using Unreal Engine or Unity will add custom compute shaders and async compute work. Only small indie developers use engines without any internal changes.
 
Definitely a portable sku without detachable controlers and just tv out would make a killing.

199$ replacing 3ds.
If you want the tv experience just grab the pro controller
 
Definitely a portable sku without detachable controlers and just tv out would make a killing.
Losing the detachable controllers would splinter the customer base. It's why Microsoft included Kinect with Xbox One and were so reluctant to remove it. Any capability that the vast majority of the user base doesn't have has a much greater chance of not being used because it limits the audience.
 
Well they' ll figured it out what's mostly used.
Detachables are useful for?
Putting the swich on a table?
Is two player mode really useful?

I believe down the line we'll see such a device
 
I find that hard to believe. They are showing a cost for the Joy Cons being more than Nintendo charges for the Joy Cons. Anyone know what a retailers cut looks like on consoles? Regardless, I think this estimate is likely a bit too high.

These prices probably aren't counting the fact that Nintendo gets these parts a bit cheaper since they buy mass quantities.

As for a Nintendo switch box, they could include the joycons along with the joycon grip that charges. Then when you have a friend over you just take the joycons off and play 2 player games. It would be a stationary box that still has the split controllers for multi-player.

Also, consider that Nintendo made the 2DS, which completely threw out 3D (the main gimmick). So it's not out of bounds for them to make a system variant that is completely different than the original.
 
But 3d could be turned off from the start and as far as I know there aren't really any games that rely on it. It's more like a graphical option.

The joycons are rather different. Without those you lose the ability to always do multiplayer with one system so I'd say that would have a much bigger impact than removing 3d had. Didn't most people play with 3d off anyway?

I'm sure Nintendo will have numbers on how many people use the joycons for multiplayer and if those numbers are low they might opt to remove them from a "slim" model.
 
But 3d could be turned off from the start and as far as I know there aren't really any games that rely on it. It's more like a graphical option.

The joycons are rather different. Without those you lose the ability to always do multiplayer with one system so I'd say that would have a much bigger impact than removing 3d had. Didn't most people play with 3d off anyway?

I'm sure Nintendo will have numbers on how many people use the joycons for multiplayer and if those numbers are low they might opt to remove them from a "slim" model.
On top of 2up gameplay without additional hardware costs, stationary and on the go, the joycons are also what allows docked and undocked gameplay using the same controllers. Not to mention that some games are built around them.

I'd argue that removing the joycons reduces functionality so much that it significantly reduces device appeal. Which means that you would have low sales to amortize your design costs over, plus you split your user base and muddle your marketing message. It's not worth it.
 
I haven't seen any games require separate joy-cons except for maybe 1, 2 Switch... Which honestly I don't think people will miss much. Even ARMS will have the option to just play with a controller. Snipper Clippers has single player as well.

If by 2019 or so, the tegra can be shrunk down a lot, I don't see why it couldn't be done. The handheld Switch may not even use a dock, but just stream to the TV if someone wants to play there.

I think it would be stupid for Nintendo to not make multiple form factors. Some people don't want the Switch because they don't want the portable aspect. Some people don't want it because it's simply to big for them to bring with them. It would be wise to eventually have models to accomodate these people. Especially at cheaper prices. The Switch can't remain $300 forever. In fact I expect by the end of the year the system will have it's first bundle to provide extra value. Then after that doesn't push them anymore, the price drops and other models will start happening.
 
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