Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[mpg1]

I don't even really game a lot anymore so I'm trying to figure out whether to go the cheap PC route or just get Scorpio and attempt to use it as an "everything device". Even a cheap Intel G4560/1050ti build will cost more than Scorpio (at least here in Canada it does) and that isn't factoring in OS cost and is assuming a $499 US price for Scorpio...

$399 US price for Scorpio would make it even more difficult to build a PC on a value basis.

 

[tuna]

I don't even really game a lot anymore so I'm trying to figure out whether to go the cheap PC route or just get Scorpio and attempt to use it as an "everything device". Even a cheap Intel G4560/1050ti build will cost more than Scorpio (at least here in Canada it does) and that isn't factoring in OS cost and is assuming a $499 US price for Scorpio...

In 6+ months that PC will probably be cheaper than it is today.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

In 6+ months that PC will probably be cheaper than it is today.

Isn't that true of most products? It took Microsoft just 7 months to adjust Xbox One's price positioning.

 

[mpg1]

The next Xbox — Project Scorpio — may be using a new "Motion" interface design language:

http://www.windowscentral.com/project-scorpio-motion-design-language

 

[ramr]

Your friends and family members will never listen to your tech advise again if you were to offer them ANY surface as a replacement to their iPad. They might even hate you for it, I am not even kidding.

What? Surface destroys MacAir, much less iPad, so badly that anyone that recommends an iPad over a surface should immediately forswear all future tech commentary.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

The next Xbox — Project Scorpio — may be using a new "Motion" interface design language:

http://www.windowscentral.com/project-scorpio-motion-design-language

I'm guessing animated menu elements (background as well as items), possibly with 3D compositing and 3D object elements where it makes sense?

Not much information, so just letting my imagination go wild here. So for example, when displaying the launch menu of a Survival-type game, in the background there would be a 3D rendered scene of some type of survival landscape with wind making objects sway or fly across the background. Or perhaps the launch menu would be a 3D scene much like some games starting hub.

It'll probably be nothing like that, but fun to imagine what could be. Also, something like that would transition very well to a VR headset view of the menu, except you could then look around in it.

Regards,
SB

 

[dobwal]

Are there any good BF deals for new consoles? Or is it the extras and games that get discounted? Seems odd to me that stores would like to get new hardware and software that'll sell any time but have to put it out there during tight-wad season when they're pressured to cut margins.

Of course. Just because every one is hunting for deals on BF, it doesn't mean they aren't in the market for things that aren't on sale. If mommy knows Johnny wants a Scorpio and plans on getting him that console then having it available for purchase while mommy is out sales hunting is advantageous to the store as well as mommy. She saves on an extra trip and the store benefits from a sale. Everything sold on BF aren't all marked down products.

Most of BF marked down products also serve the function of acting a loss leader and most of the items that are marked down a bunch are often stocked rather poorly. You end drawing a lot of people to a store with only enough stock to serve a fraction of them. Those shoppers who missed out will still shop and a percentage will buy items that represent profitable margins for the store.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

What? Surface destroys MacAir, much less iPad, so badly that anyone that recommends an iPad over a surface should immediately forswear all future tech commentary.

Surely it depend on what you need the device for, and how heavily invested you are in any particular ecosystem, particularly Windows vs. iOS. Plus basic cost of ownership.

 

[eastmen]

Surely it depend on what you need the device for, and how heavily invested you are in any particular ecosystem, particularly Windows vs. iOS. Plus basic cost of ownership.

since I bought my surface pro I now have 7 family members using surfaces. The best part is one was a huge mac fan but loved to draw , he got a mid range surface pro 3 cause I recommened it to him. He now uses it more than his mac book and today while planning a Disney trip we went on his mac book and he would keep trying to swipe the screen to do something on it lol.

Now of course if they just want to play dumb games on it , I would recommend a $100-$150 android tablet.

 

[eastmen]

I don't even really game a lot anymore so I'm trying to figure out whether to go the cheap PC route or just get Scorpio and attempt to use it as an "everything device". Even a cheap Intel G4560/1050ti build will cost more than Scorpio (at least here in Canada it does) and that isn't factoring in OS cost and is assuming a $499 US price for Scorpio...

$399 US price for Scorpio would make it even more difficult to build a PC on a value basis.

The pc might be a bit more expensive but you'd be able to do more with it and you'd be able to up grade it cheaply to stick to the next gen systems.

Figure

$300 x1700 8/16 core ryzen
$100 16 gigs ddr 4
$100 mobo
$100 256 gig m.2 ssd
$50 1tb drive
$50 power supply
$50 case
$200 8 gig radeon

But that be a system that lasted years and you could just swap out the gpu when next gen consoles hit in another 3 years and be past even those most likely. PC gaming makes the most sense when you jump in and keep your system fairly up to date. I am planning on doing my first cpu update in 5 years and to be honest my i7 3820 would last longer if I didn't want to upgrade it. most with an i5 -2500k are still chugging and that chip is a year older. once you build that foundation its just graphics upgrades and i'm on a r9 290 and it still runs everything fine at 1080p 60fps and I think I can go another year or so with it. But if needed that every 5 years or 6 years you need a new cpu you take a year off your gpu or two years off your gpu upgrade.

 

[Jay]

The pc might be a bit more expensive but you'd be able to do more with it and you'd be able to up grade it cheaply to stick to the next gen systems.

Figure

$300 x1700 8/16 core ryzen
$100 16 gigs ddr 4
$100 mobo
$100 256 gig m.2 ssd
$50 1tb drive
$50 power supply
$50 case
$200 8 gig radeon

To be honest the way you describe it, pc can actually be more expensive, even in the long term.
The pc you describe is almost double the cost of the Scorpio.
So if in 3-5 years you wanted the next xbox then you still would've paid less than the initial cost of the pc (not including any upgrades you may or may not have done).
So when you get next Xbox you can either trade it in, sell it, keep it, give it away whatever. Either way you have two machines for the price of the one pc.

 

[turkey]

I'm guessing animated menu elements (background as well as items), possibly with 3D compositing and 3D object elements where it makes sense?

Not much information, so just letting my imagination go wild here. So for example, when displaying the launch menu of a Survival-type game, in the background there would be a 3D rendered scene of some type of survival landscape with wind making objects sway or fly across the background. Or perhaps the launch menu would be a 3D scene much like some games starting hub.

It'll probably be nothing like that, but fun to imagine what could be. Also, something like that would transition very well to a VR headset view of the menu, except you could then look around in it.

Regards,
SB

I'd they follow the Xbox one hardware allocation rules; the worst case (for dash resources) is the game is running and visible in which case the game gets 45% of the GPU, that means over 3tf for the dash to make itself look pretty.

That's seems like plenty to drive a pretty swanky VR experience,

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't even really game a lot anymore so I'm trying to figure out whether to go the cheap PC route or just get Scorpio and attempt to use it as an "everything device". Even a cheap Intel G4560/1050ti build will cost more than Scorpio (at least here in Canada it does) and that isn't factoring in OS cost and is assuming a $499 US price for Scorpio...

$399 US price for Scorpio would make it even more difficult to build a PC on a value basis.

PC is never going to beat console on the minimal price. The question is more a matter of how much more PC costs and what value that adds. Your build won't game as well as Scorpio but will offer other functionality.

I'm guessing animated menu elements (background as well as items), possibly with 3D compositing and 3D object elements where it makes sense?

Not much information, so just letting my imagination go wild here. So for example, when displaying the launch menu of a Survival-type game, in the background there would be a 3D rendered scene of some type of survival landscape with wind making objects sway or fly across the background. Or perhaps the launch menu would be a 3D scene much like some games starting hub.

It'll probably be nothing like that, but fun to imagine what could be. Also, something like that would transition very well to a VR headset view of the menu, except you could then look around in it.

Regards,
SB

We had 3D themes with PS360 but they haven't continued. I guess devs didn't like the effort needed, especially when a short lived background barely seen and never appreciated. Highly animated with lots of movement in and out (context sensitive menus with Pretties) is my expectation. Would be nice if it was awesome and became something applicable to Windows as a tablet.

 

[Phil]

Myself, I am waiting out for Scorpio, because of the general perception that it would have a better CPU, 12GB, faster memory as well as a better GPU when compared to PS4 Pro, not to mention better VR capabilities. I mostly play multiplatform titles, and I don't play online so I get to choose which console I want.

Now, if MS is going to remove VR, 12GB, and a better CPU from the equation then I will never buy or touch anything MS ever again. I am an influencer, several family members and friends bought WP because of me, and some of them did not buy a Surface because of me. I will make sure none of my friends ever buy Xbox again if Scorpio is just a Jaguar with a 6TF GPU and 8GB of 320GB/sec memory without any VR options.

Awesome! You do realize though that no matter how powerful these pro editions of consoles are, they are held back by the necessity to support their lowest-common-denominator? PS4 is/was slightly held back by Xbox One, and both Pro and Scorpio will be held back by what both the PS4 and Xbox One can achieve.

A mate of mine just got a PS4pro recently and despite the overall smoother experience, he couldn't pin point what about BF1 looked better vs. playing it just moments before on a normal PS4. Considering the performance difference of both hardware, I find it quite extraordinary (but not surprising). I do find it even more surprising when I hear people wanting to buy a Scorpio over a PS4 however. For what? It's the user experience that should count. If you are new to console gaming, fair enough, but if you're already invested into a console, why does that extra "memory, CPU and what not" matter?

Scorpio could be 10 times more powerful than the Pro and I would never consider it because all my friends have PS4 and I'm already far to invested into that platform. Likewise, there are many Xbox fans that clearly prefer the Xbox One experience despite "weaker hardware" for the same reason which is just as legitimate. But buying the upgraded version of a console for the better specs? I don't get it.

 

[dobwal]

Consoles act as a lowest common denominator for all AAA gaming hardware including PCs. Patched PS4 and recently launched titles with Pro support shouldn't be looked as gold standard examples of what to expect going forward. That like taking Vega and Volta and saying their capabilities will be well represented by recently released games at ultra settings.

And I doubt Scorpio's success will be dependent on a group of gamers salty that Scorpio sports jags over zen. MS is going to do like Sony and that is give you as much performance as they can at a reasonable price that makes financial sense. If it means jags then it means jag. If zen is that important to any of you then you have options in the pc space.

 

[ProspectorPete]

Awesome! You do realize though that no matter how powerful these pro editions of consoles are, they are held back by the necessity to support their lowest-common-denominator? PS4 is/was slightly held back by Xbox One, and both Pro and Scorpio will be held back by what both the PS4 and Xbox One can achieve.

A mate of mine just got a PS4pro recently and despite the overall smoother experience, he couldn't pin point what about BF1 looked better vs. playing it just moments before on a normal PS4. Considering the performance difference of both hardware, I find it quite extraordinary (but not surprising). I do find it even more surprising when I hear people wanting to buy a Scorpio over a PS4 however. For what? It's the user experience that should count. If you are new to console gaming, fair enough, but if you're already invested into a console, why does that extra "memory, CPU and what not" matter?

Scorpio could be 10 times more powerful than the Pro and I would never consider it because all my friends have PS4 and I'm already far to invested into that platform. Likewise, there are many Xbox fans that clearly prefer the Xbox One experience despite "weaker hardware" for the same reason which is just as legitimate. But buying the upgraded version of a console for the better specs? I don't get it.

You know what, I am tired of waiting, I am going to see if they have PS4 Pro in stock. It's that other Phil (Spencer) that convinced me though; his FF XV tweet is so irritating that I don't want to give his company any more money. Is it possible to change usernames on this forum?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/list-of-forum-user-name-changes.34498/

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

I've just been looking at the FFXV thread, and the talk about its new Pro patch. What would Scorpio need in order to be the 60fps Xbox?

My limited understanding is that it's essentially CPU limited, and double the framerate requires double the CPU power. So, given that the PS4Pro isn't clocked twice as high as the PS4, it indicates that the reason may also be applicable to Scorpio. If so, what solutions are there? Newer architectures with greater IPC, or improved thermal properties so they can just clock higher?

Could double the number of cores clocked the same theoretically solve it? So an eight physical core Zen for example.

 

[MrFox]

I've just been looking at the FFXV thread, and the talk about its new Pro patch. What would Scorpio need in order to be the 60fps Xbox?

My limited understanding is that it's essentially CPU limited, and double the framerate requires double the CPU power. So, given that the PS4Pro isn't clocked twice as high as the PS4, it indicates that the reason may also be applicable to Scorpio. If so, what solutions are there? Newer architectures with greater IPC, or improved thermal properties so they can just clock higher?

Could double the number of cores clocked the same theoretically solve it? So an eight physical core Zen for example.

Frame interpolation? It was leaked/rumored.
https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/243325-leaked-pdf-xbox-microsofts-project-scorpio-4k-gaming-plans

Another option developers might consider is frame-rate upscaling — running graphics at 60Hz but the CPU at 30Hz and interpolating animation.

 

[Phil]

Consoles act as a lowest common denominator for all AAA gaming hardware including PCs. Patched PS4 and recently launched titles with Pro support shouldn't be looked as gold standard examples of what to expect going forward. That like taking Vega and Volta and saying their capabilities will be well represented by recently released games at ultra settings.

That may be true, though I am doubtful we will see a large difference. Certainly not by the amount the hardware is more capable because you are also increasing resolution. The gameplay will clearly be limited to the lowest-common-denominator. If you have a racing game, you will not suddenly have more cars on track because of it (because that would change the gameplay). The difference will most likely be confined to resolution, image-quality, framerate (smoothness) and the rest will be purely cosmetic. Cosmetic is nice of course, but that's all it is - and ironically all that Pro is marketed as: premium price for the (slightly) premium experience.

Of course differences are subjective. As I said, having two games running on either a PS4 and a PS4pro side by side will highlight these differences, but playing just one and comparing by memory will make it difficult to pin-point what exactly is better. Will it make the gaming experience that much better? Doubtful. For me, it hasn't been worth the upgrade, hence why I still own and play on a normal (launch) PS4. Was I in the market for a new PS4 for the first time, then of course I'd go for the Pro for obvious reasons. I can't quite justify upgrading though at this point and some cosmetic benefit isn't going to change that. Smoother framerate would be nice though for the most part.

My point before was mainly to highlight that prior to when both the PS4 and XboxOne launched, the world (well mostly the Xbox world and fanbase) was in uproar over the shock of how much more powerful the PS4 is on paper vs. the Xbox. Has this difference materialized in games? Certainly not in multiplatform games. Yes, the PS4 versions might run a bit better, slightly higher resolution here and there etc, but has it made the inferior versions unplayable? Not in the slightest and for the most part, most don't even care anymore. I'm sure most Xbox One owners will agree (except those that spend 99% of their day in forums arguing their console is the best). And I doubt most PS4pro owners will care if some multiplatform games will end up looking better on Scorpio in a non-quantifiable way.