Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[jiaolu]

"Semi-custom
Xbox One + PS4 have been very successful
Nice way for AMD to differentiate themselves
Currently doing mid-cycle refreshes in this area
Expect Zen in semi-custom roadmap beyond 2017"

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/com ... rview_with_lisa_su/

so if the Scorpio will miss the chance to incorporate the zen. It it is not Jaguar, then Carrizo is highly likely to be in Scorpio

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Margins on console deals being low is interesting. I'd have bought AMD would be negotiating from a position of strength given the lack of other options.

 

[fehu]

Mybe low compared to the rest of the business?

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Well everything in business is relative to your bottom line. I guess the effort to customise silicon for Microsoft and Sony's needs is trivial enough.

 

[iroboto]

Well everything in business is relative to your bottom line. I guess the effort to customise silicon for Microsoft and Sony's needs is trivial enough.

"Semi custom margins are lower however, customers are paying for engineering"

Might be the big take away for AMD here. Not having to foot all of the capital costs for R&D is ideal considering the situation they are in. They only do enough engineering to get the product out and they already have a buyer lined up. And that knowledge can be passed around to other products. Certainly less risky than trying to be a leader and footing large R&D costs for a failed technology.

 

[3dilettante]

"Semi custom margins are lower however, customers are paying for engineering"

Might be the big take away for AMD here. Not having to foot all of the capital costs for R&D is ideal considering the situation they are in. They only do enough engineering to get the product out and they already have a buyer lined up. And that knowledge can be passed around to other products. Certainly less risky than trying to be a leader and footing large R&D costs for a failed technology.

The messaging was always that semi-custom made it so the customer paid for NRE at the cost of low margins. When the current generation consoles launched, AMD made note that semicustom margins were surprisingly high at 15%.

I expect there are downsides to doing this, since AMD's resources are limited and there's only so many silicon products that can be ramped in a year with a set amount of resources. The goals of the customers also may not align with AMD's long-term interests in the higher-margin markets it wants. Implementing a Jaguar APU with console-specific tweaks may not feed very well into a high-end server product that Sony and Microsoft would not care to spend research money on, so AMD might be taking money now to divert limited resources away from profitable features later.

 

[eastmen]

If the 40% advantage of PS4 didn't provide a substantial difference, the 40% increase of scorpio won't either. Not sure what third parties will do, but expect a similar situation as we're seeing with OG PS4/XB1.

(ignoring secret sauces)

40% isn't the full story. Xbox one had the same cpu but clocked higher and they both had the same amount of ram.

Scorpio may have a faster cpu + 40% + faster gpu and more ram which will bring better visuals. The more ram the better it will look

 

[function]

40% isn't the full story. Xbox one had the same cpu but clocked higher and they both had the same amount of ram.

Scorpio may have a faster cpu + 40% + faster gpu and more ram which will bring better visuals. The more ram the better it will look

Indeed. PS4 does have a 40% (or higher) advantage in some areas, but is a match or even an deficit in others. Scorpio is looking to have a greater than 40% advantage in far more areas (some of them very important) and yet a deficit in none.

Despite this, the groundwork is being laid by platform warriors to present the false narrative that it's basically the same situation in reverse. Which it isn't.

Console wars tho innit.

 

[eastmen]

Indeed. PS4 does have a 40% (or higher) advantage in some areas, but is a match or even an deficit in others. Scorpio is looking to have a greater than 40% advantage in far more areas (some of them very important) and yet a deficit in none.

Despite this, the groundwork is being laid by platform warriors to present the false narrative that it's basically the same situation in reverse. Which it isn't.

Console wars tho innit.

Right , I think the ps4 pro's advantages are that its coming off a more sucesful console , its out a year earlier and launched at $400. The scorpio will be more powerful in most likely every area , will be more expensive when it launches than the pro will be at that time .

Gamers will have to choose what they want. From impressions around the web the ps4 pro's software at least is half baked with worse performance in a lot of areas. So hopefully MS learns from this

 

[Michellstar]

To me Scorpio it´s more about mindshare, than anything.

You want in the console space top performance you can pick scorpio, you look for price there is the One for you. Both machines have access to the same set of games.

People thought that scorpio announcement would kill any XBS chance, but it´s been selling well since launch. It´s a nice machine at a right price, and the thing if you pick the slim now, you can upgrade to scorpio down the line, and take with you all your library to the next machine, or the next after it. There is no hurry to upgrade (an affordable 40´HDR 4k 12 bit telly anyone??)

Much of this affect the sony ecosystem as well, if they don´t blow it up for the 5.
If this was a traditional console generation, the battle would be over a long time ago. Now with this
iterative approach, things live subs sold, online community, etc take relevance.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

People thought that scorpio announcement would kill any XBS chance, but it´s been selling well since launch.

Some people did, most did not. It's good that both manufacturers are catering for the few gamers who are willing to spend a bit more to have shinier pixels.

 

[bunge]

From impressions around the web the ps4 pro's software at least is half baked with worse performance in a lot of areas.

lulz

 

[mpg1]

People thought that scorpio announcement would kill any XBS chance, but it´s been selling well since launch. It´s a nice machine at a right price, and the thing if you pick the slim now, you can upgrade to scorpio down the line, and take with you all your library to the next machine, or the next after it. There is no hurry to upgrade (an affordable 40´HDR 4k 12 bit telly anyone??)

I think most people forget that Xbox One was $499 at a launch just 3 years ago. On black friday you could get the new smaller version with 4K features for $250 (literally half the price compared to launch) and some games bundled in/promo card depending on the deal.

In a weird way by having to keep cost of the actual console hardware low because they wanted to include Kinect as mandatory is now sort of paying off for them. Who knows how the overall cost of Xbox One at luanch was broken down between console and kinect...I suspect it was $375 console and $125 for Kinect. Which means Xbox One console itself could probably have sold for $374.99 at launch.

Now 3 years later they are able to sell it at the same price as 360 was at the end of it's lifecycle..

 

[iroboto]

I think most people forget that Xbox One was $499 at a launch just 3 years ago. On black friday you could get the new smaller version with 4K features for $250 (literally half the price compared to launch) and some games bundled in/promo card depending on the deal.

In a weird way by having to keep cost of the actual console hardware low because they wanted to include Kinect as mandatory is now sort of paying off for them. Who knows how the overall cost of Xbox One at luanch was broken down between console and kinect...I suspect it was $375 console and $125 for Kinect. Which means Xbox One console itself could probably have sold for $374.99 at launch.

Now 3 years later they are able to sell it at the same price as 360 was at the end of it's lifecycle..

it definitely doesn't have its benefits to be an early adopter. The first wave really suffers through with mainly just a lot of community support. It's not until 3 years later where the product is actually at a place that the mainstream group finds desirable.

that being said, I'm unsure if TV was an issue back last gen, but TV certainly is an issue this gen (at least for now).

 

[Deleted member 11852]

that being said, I'm unsure if TV was an issue back last gen, but TV certainly is an issue this gen (at least for now).

TV as in standards? HDTV was in early stages of transition back in 2005-07 when 360 and PS3 launched globally. I bought PS3 in part for Blu-ray but couldn't quite spring for full 1080p set so went for a 720p Samsung. Then there were 1080i sets and sets that didn't properly support 24Hz and other weird oddities. Comparatively 4K is easier to comprehend but HDR is a mess.

Or TV was in watching TV? I remember Microsoft managed to bag Netflix streaming exclusively as a console exclusive feature for a while but which Netflix stupidly then undermined with Netflix software on disc for PS3 until the exclusivity with Microsoft expired then the it just became an App. So TV was definitely a thing driving such shenanigans last gen.

It's probably a wash. But hey, next gen eh ;-)

 

[iroboto]

TV as in standards? HDTV was in early stages of transition back in 2005-07 when 360 and PS3 launched globally. I bought PS3 in part for Blu-ray but couldn't quite spring for full 1080p set so went for a 720p Samsung. Then there were 1080i sets and sets that didn't properly support 24Hz and other weird oddities. Comparatively 4K is easier to comprehend but HDR is a mess.

Or TV was in watching TV? I remember Microsoft managed to bag Netflix streaming exclusively as a console exclusive feature for a while but which Netflix stupidly then undermined with Netflix software on disc for PS3 until the exclusivity with Microsoft expired then the it just became an App. So TV was definitely a thing driving such shenanigans last gen.

It's probably a wash. But hey, next gen eh ;-)

Yea standards! Ahh. So it was sort of bad back then too. You just made me remember that my first purchased TV could only do 1080i.

Haha
Yea waiting is just safer

 

[DrJay24]

Scorpio may..

That the thing when you announce something that doesn't exist, it opens a world of possibilities. That was a smart move by MS, now the warriors can go fight the fight armed with "what ifs".

 

[eastmen]

That the thing when you announce something that doesn't exist, it opens a world of possibilities. That was a smart move by MS, now the warriors can go fight the fight armed with "what ifs".

ohhhhhhhh yourrrr so slyyyyyy.

I think there was only one time in history of video games (or at least modern gaming nes +) where the system released later wasn't more powerful than the older one and that was the ps3 being weaker than the xbox one.

Scorpio is going to release about a year after the ps4 pro. I don't see MS supporting a new optical format like holographic discs or some other thing crazy that will drive the cost up hundreds of dollars and offer no performance advantage while doing it.

Scorpio will be a x86 GCN system. Even putting in zenwould not skyrocket the price and will still increase performance over the jaguar in the ps4 pro. Of course a faster clocked jaguar would be an advantage also. Again 12 gigs of ram will not make the price sky rocket and will offer a visual upgrade vs 8 gigs of ram same with 16 or 24 vs 8 gig. Any modern GCN they put in at 6tflop will be more powerful than the GCN in the ps4 pro . I also don't believe MS would wait a year and put in something older than Polaris / Vega if Sony already has a Polaris hybrid in their system

So again its not what ifs, Its just what is.

 

[Rikimaru]

Scorpio will be a x86 GCN system. Even putting in zenwould not skyrocket the price and will still increase performance over the jaguar in the ps4 pro. Of course a faster clocked jaguar would be an advantage also. Again 12 gigs of ram will not make the price sky rocket and will offer a visual upgrade vs 8 gigs of ram same with 16 or 24 vs 8 gig.

1. It will.
2. It will.
3. 384bit bus is expensive.

 

[eastmen]

1. It will.
2. It will.
3. 384bit bus is expensive.

Ps4 /xbox one have a 256bit bus and they are now selling for $250

I am not sure the 384bit bus will be a huge expense and will be coming down the pipe a year from now. I also don't agree that Zen will be a huge price jump either if they include it.