Anyone planning any new hardware purchase...

[AAlcHemY]

The Baron,
once you have seen the advantages of watercooling, you wont go back to aircooling. I never had any broken hardware of it in the 2.5 years i'm using it. Just take your time to instal and check if you didn't make any mistakes.

The only minor thing imo is the weight. Empty, my case is about 3kg. Now its about 28kg. ( I do a lot of lans )

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Well, I think water cooling kits are a lot like OEM computers, they're good if you're just starting with it or want a convenient solution that 'just works'. (as far as that can be said about water cooling systems, that is) However, as with computers, as you learn more, you can grow a desire to build a system that fits your needs better than a kit could ever do.

incurable

Well they do sell all the various components separately, and allow you to mix and match any options. It just so happens they also do a complete set of everything you'll need in one package. It may not be quite as geeky as machining your own waterblock, but then watercooling is more mainstream than it was a couple of years back when you had to build everything yourself.

It's the same as with aircooling - sure you could machine up your own big copper cooler, but nowadays you can get them off-the-shelf for a reasonable price, with good performance, and a lot less hassle.

 

[Sxotty]

BZB he suggested buying the water block, he just gave some really good ideas. A heater core from a junkyard would work perfect and be cheap, I thought about buying a heater core, but it never crossed my mind to go get one from a junkyard...I did make my own resevoir out of PVC pipe, and I did buy a kit from swiftech, and the pump did suck so I bought an enheim pump as well later...it leaked btw (the pump) swiftech "refurbished" it and it started leaking again in about 2 months, so I got pissed and just bought a good pump.

 

[Althornin]

nm

 

[Althornin]

Well they do sell all the various components separately, and allow you to mix and match any options. It just so happens they also do a complete set of everything you'll need in one package. It may not be quite as geeky as machining your own waterblock, but then watercooling is more mainstream than it was a couple of years back when you had to build everything yourself.

It's the same as with aircooling - sure you could machine up your own big copper cooler, but nowadays you can get them off-the-shelf for a reasonable price, with good performance, and a lot less hassle.

I never suggested machining your own - although you can.
And i know that unless you are talking about one of the "kits" from a place like danger den where you basically just get a waterblock, heatercore, and decent pump and tubing, unlike the kit that was mentioned in this thread - which is overpriced, and low performing.

I'm sorry, i thought you wanted opinions and advice. I see that in reality, your mind is made up, and any contrary advice will be ignored.
Go out and spend more money (your "reasonable price" is not, for the perf. you get) and get worse performance ( 1/4 inch hoses and a 14 pass radiator dont give great performance....) then do it.
If you want reasons why the kits suck moneywise compared to waht you can buy for yourself, i can tell you.

The problem is your perspective - "reasonable performance" and "reasonable cost" dont exist in a vacuum - and when cheaper parts you uby yourself give better performance, then "reasoanble cost" and "reasonable performance" are out the window.
Whatever.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

I'm sorry, i thought you wanted opinions and advice. I see that in reality, your mind is made up, and any contrary advice will be ignored.

Well I would take your advice more seriously if you'd had some experience of this particular product, rather than dismissing it out of hand and recommending some kind of jury-rigged method involving junkyards.

Other people who *have* used this product seem to generally have a very good opinion of it, and I place more weight in those opinions.

 

[Althornin]

Well I would take your advice more seriously if you'd had some experience of this particular product, rather than dismissing it out of hand and recommending some kind of jury-rigged method involving junkyards.

Other people who *have* used this product seem to generally have a very good opinion of it, and I place more weight in those opinions.

OMFG, you think using a heatercore is a "jury-rigged method"?
WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM?
Did you not see where i told you you can buy a heatercore online? HAve you done ZERO research? WTF are you talking about? The vast majority of radiators used in watercooling ARE heatercores. If you want to spend more and buy it online (as i mentioned above) THEN DO SO.
Have you not done any research on the matter to know that many watercooling shops sell heatercores? I was trying to save you a few bucks, lol!
As for dismissing it out of hand, WRONG. I state in my post above why that particular kit sucks. It uses tiny tubing (1/4 inch), has a crappy radiator (that style is rediculously restrictive and offers far less heat dissipation capacity than a heater core does).

Your post above shows me you dont know jack about water cooling - and you dont want to learn. IF you wanted to learn, you'd actually listen. Try it.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

As for dismissing it out of hand, WRONG. I state in my post above why that particular kit sucks. It uses tiny tubing (1/4 inch), has a crappy radiator (that style is rediculously restrictive and offers far less heat dissipation capacity than a heater core does).

Your post above shows me you dont know jack about water cooling - and you dont want to learn. IF you wanted to learn, you'd actually listen. Try it.

If you'd done any research on that product, they address those issues exactly on their website. They explain why they made the design decisions they did, including why people mistakenly belive they need giant water pipes.

 

[incurable]

If you'd done any research on that product, they address those issues exactly on their website. They explain why they made the design decisions they did, including why people mistakenly belive they need giant water pipes.

Some things that come to mind looking at the pieces of their kit:

- the standard CPU cooler is made of Aluminum, radiator pipes are copper, you're bound to get some ugly corosion
- the CPU cooler is of questionable design (look for Cathar-designed blocks for best performance, http://www.employees.org/~slf/lrwb/ )
- the radiator is to small to guarantee silent operation at decent temperatur for a contemporary PC, especially if you plan to cool CPU and GPU (and NB?) and
- all components seem to carry a very high price

cu

incurable

 

[Althornin]

If you'd done any research on that product, they address those issues exactly on their website. They explain why they made the design decisions they did, including why people mistakenly belive they need giant water pipes.

I have done research on it.
They are wrong, and their product performs poorly in comparison to a DIY solution that costs less.
Hence, it is CRAP.

You have two people who know what they are talking about, and for some reason (maybe you didnt like my initial attitude, or something) you want to take the companies propaganda as the truth. I have no versted interest in this, who is more likely to mislead you? THINK!
Of course they say all the problems arent really problems, how else can they sell products!

- the CPU cooler is of questionable design (look for Cathar-designed blocks for best performance, http://www.employees.org/~slf/lrwb/ )
cu

incurable

I've had a LRWW in my machine for quite a while

 

[beyondhelp]

For Test results of most of Todays Commercial Kits and and Water Blocks available try this linkage...

http://www.overclockers.com/articles373/

These guys Testing Methodology is solid and I trust them. imho, They are as knowledgeable about water cooling as anyone, and there is a very good Water cooling Forum there too. Lots of Good info available.

Just FYI, The Danger Den RBX is the best water block available with a tested c/w of .13

 

[incurable]

- the CPU cooler is of questionable design (look for Cathar-designed blocks for best performance, http://www.employees.org/~slf/lrwb/ )

I've had a LRWW in my machine for quite a while

Yep, the LRWW is a nice piece of work, I'm using one in my main PC right now. No problems in over a year.

cu

incurable, trying to withstand the Cascades temptation

 

[Gnep]

I have the Wet and Chilly Chips parts. So I'll enlighted you all with some first-hand experience.

1) It isn't that expensive for the UK. I wasn't in the position to go around to a wrecking yard when I went watercooled, so really it made little difference to go pick-your-own or not.

2) The kit works fine. I am happily cooling an Athlon 2500+ at 2.2GHz, and a Parhelia (these cards run hot baby) with only a 5V 120mm fan sucking across the radiator. Temps are low (8-14 deg C over ambient typically) and there is ZERO point in working hard to get them any lower. Especially given that this particular system is v. v. quiet.

3) The aluminium parts are all anodized. This means no corrosion issues when mixed with copper parts.

4) The waterblock design is actually very efficient when looked at in modelling software - the difference between theirs and a cascade is really not worth the hassle - as the biggest ++ about the WACC waterblocks are the ease with which they are fitted and with which pressure is applied to the CPU core - you need to really see it in the flesh, but it is one of those pieces of product design brilliance that you come across every now and then.

5) The use of small ID pipe: this actually has no real effect, and makes routing pipes around the case much much easier. With a watercooling system, the flowrate around the loop can be considered as constant (assumption: water is incompressible) if all air is out, and defined by the pump characteristics (as long as you have sufficient head - see last sentence in this paragraph). Also the water temperature can be considered effectively constant around the loop (+/- 1-2 deg C) once you have reached steady-state. Therefore the key issue is piezometric head (ie pressure) at various places around the loop. Partly as heat transfer is better at higher pressure, and partly because you need to make sure that you are not losing too much head as you go right around the loop so the pump can still work. And the relative head loss in a piece of curved or straight plastic (vinyl, whatever) pipe is so low compared to that over any (a) tight corners (b) restrictions and (c) the block, rad etc themselves that the diameter of the pipe is irrelevant.

All in all I am v. happy with my WACC watercooling setup. They are a v. small company though and AFAIK cannot ship to the US yet.

Gnep

 

[Althornin]

3) The aluminium parts are all anodized. This means no corrosion issues when mixed with copper parts.

not. anodizing fails sometimes. You should be running an anti-corrosive mix, because if there is a tiny scratch or imperfection ont he anodizing, it concentrates the effect of galvanic corrosion. I'm not saying it WILL fail - but i am saying anodizing is far from a catch all.

4) The waterblock design is actually very efficient when looked at in modelling software - the difference between theirs and a cascade is really not worth the hassle - as the biggest ++ about the WACC waterblocks are the ease with which they are fitted and with which pressure is applied to the CPU core - you need to really see it in the flesh, but it is one of those pieces of product design brilliance that you come across every now and then.

Actually, its not even as efficent as a white water is - no center inlet, no jet impingement , a thick base for a larger thermal gradient...
Is the waterblock bad? No, but it is simply a microchannel block, and not in the same league as a cascade, much less a white water.

5) The use of small ID pipe: this actually has no real effect

wrong.

Partly as heat transfer is better at higher pressure

LOL! Nope, sorry this is simply BS - at least in context. Heat transfer IS better between two surfaces as pressure forcing them together increases, but that has ntohing to do with the ubing and "head" losses you mention here.

And the relative head loss in a piece of curved or straight plastic (vinyl, whatever) pipe is so low compared to that over any (a) tight corners (b) restrictions and (c) the block, rad etc themselves that the diameter of the pipe is irrelevant.

Actually, its not irrelevant. I suggest you read some of Bill Adams work, and get some real numbers on flow resistances.

I also note you dont mention the crappy radiator.

All in all I am v. happy with my WACC watercooling setup. They are a v. small company though and AFAIK cannot ship to the US yet.

fine, glad you are happy. doesnt mean you cant get better performance for less money with a DIY solution though.

 

[Gnep]

An issue I forgot to mention is that going build-your-own costs too much time - let's just say with an extra hour's worth of effort to track down components etc I would have lost the cost benefit about ten times over. I just wanted a system that would allow me to go (a) v. quiet and (b) that was IN BALANCE with the rest of my system (and would remain so over the next year or two). There is zero point in having any lower temps than I do now, system-wide - given that I the cooling is not my bottleneck any more, nor is it likely to be in the near to mid future, I am happy.

The radiator is actually fine - sure it looks a bit industrial, but with the internal rifling on the tubes increasing turbulence I guess heat transfer is good - which is what a radiator is for after all. And in terms of impeding flow with lots of bends - yeah, sure it does so, but not enough to mean the system falls over, or even remotely near this. And it fits in the space I've given it quite well, which is important

I'm rather rusty on my fluid mechanics (think I've still got a copy of Massey floating around somewhere though...) and heat transfer - hey, it's been a long while and I've gone over to the dark side of finance since my engineering masters. I'll go look up Bill Adams' work though - sounds quite interesting.

Actually one thing I couldn't ever find proper empirical data on was the heat transfer properties of a water/solid interface as you increased the pressure... so if anything was BS this might have been...

The "science" of PC watercooling is nothing like that yet - I have never actually seen any intelligent, well-informed writing on the subject, and there is very little on the net regarding the academic side of non-PC fluid heat-transfer systems (after all, it's only a mechanism to move heat from one place to another in the end...).

Gnep