Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[goonergaz]

I don't think it's sunk in yet just how much better Scorpio may be than PS4 Pro.

It's common to see comments such as "but the difference between Scoprio and Neo is only the same as between X1 and PS4!" based purely on flops. But there more to a system than that.

PS4 and X1 had the same amount of memory, the same optical and HDD storage size, same GPU generation, and same CPU architecture. PS4 had somewhat more GPU, while X1 actually had a faster CPU. The core game experience they can support is basically the same.

Scorpio already has somewhat more GPU than Pro, and significantly more bandwidth in an apparently like for like comparison, but if that's where the differences end then the PS4 > X1 comparison may be fair enough. But it's entirely possible that the Scorpio might also end up with:

- significantly more RAM, combined with ...
- double the storage size for media, allowing higher quality assets
- a more efficient, next generation GPU architecture
- a massively more capable CPU

Neo is a PS4 with a roided up GPU. Scoprio otoh may be a complete next generation of platform capability, from core game logic that runs on the CPU to the standard of assets the platform can use through to media support.

Scorpio might not just be a GPU bumped X1 or Neo.

Maybe, or you could just look at all the figures we know and generalise that it's 1.5x the power (almost everything we know is 50% more - GPU, B/W & RAM).
And even then, what's stopping Sony revealing PS5 6 months after Scorpio launches with an even bigger jump?

 

[function]

I agree the Scorpio should on paper, but a significant jump from PS4 Pro, but don't forget that it's tied into the Xbox One ecosystem, and software needs to be fully compatible. Also, there is not "supposedly" any Scorpio Exclusive titles.

A lot will come down to how cross generation (X1 -> Scro) titles are expected to work, I think. If they have to have exactly the same frame rates, physics, timings, NPC count, maximum player counts etc, and are only allowed to differ in terms of resolution and assets then the gains from Scorpio will be limited.

But if a Scorpio game can have a higher frame rate, or twice the player count on a server, or more populated worlds, or more complex physics model, better AI from NPCs, or larger levels etc then the differences between generations could start to show early on.

Green Hill Zone:

Green hill zone:

(I know, I know, MS version was a back port so it doesn't really count )

VR games don't have to appear on the X1, I believe. This is where Scoprio could easily show X1/PS4/Scoprio a clean pair of heels in terms of core game experience and go for some of the more demanding PC stuff ... if the market and the money is there (my money isn't there yet ).

 

[iroboto]

And then there's the whole ecosystem point - who's going to migrate from PS to XB for a half-gen upgrade?

Upgrading into all gen
The assumption from Xbox talking heads here is that post Scorpio games will still continue to work. And they offer them for PC as well, at least exclusives will be mainly.

We have no such assurances that will be the case with PS5. If i buy into Neo today, 3 years from now PS5 comes and I have to rebuy my library or peripherals. A new PSVR if I bought into that, cause who wants 1080p VR.

Eh. Not getting warm and fuzzy over those thoughts. Especially since I don't gain anything of worth once the console is no longer supported. At least there is still UHD and Apps for all XBoxes go forward. I may get my choice for a VR headset as well since it doesn't need an external brick.

Not a terrible proposition. But if you want PS exclusives through and through you will never leave PS.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[function]

Maybe, or you could just look at all the figures we know and generalise that it's 1.5x the power (almost everything we know is 50% more - GPU, B/W & RAM).

You can't really generalise about unknowns, and a lot is still unknown.

Aspects of the Scorpio could end up being 1x Neo, or could end up being 2x or 3x. E.g. the CPU could be really slow like in the X1 / PS4 / Neo, but if (if!) it's Zen it could easily be 3x faster.

My point was that PS4 is anything but 1.5x the X1 across the board. In some circumstances it's actually less than 1x. From what we know already it appears likely that the gap between Scro and Neo will be larger than it was between PS4 and Neo, and those differences could be across the board in all areas that limit what the system can do and what it can work with. Or maybe not.

Maybe MS will be so pleased with the cost and power consumption of Jaguar on TSMC 16nm that they'll say "fuck it, we're only getting X1S/PS4 level games anyway, and 30 fps makes me hard".

 

[fehu]

Your knowledge of astrology is second only to saint seyia

 

[function]

Because then they'd have to call it a Libra, whose ecliptic longitude is 180 degrees.

The translation for Libra is also "The Scales". Upscale.

Mind you, the ruling planet of Libra is also Venus, which happens to be the hottest body in the solar system (aside from the Sun), whereas it is currently Pluto for Scorpio. One might say that's opposite. Or perhaps, a 180. Given the amount of power in the supposed "Scorpio", it ought to contain a lot more heat than any other console.

Can I have a reading about my future please?

I need to know about any unexpected financial opportunities that I should take.

 

[goonergaz]

You can't really generalise about unknowns, and a lot is still unknown.

Isn't CPU the only 'real' unknown? Either way the Scorpio will be held back to an extent by games needing to be XBO compatible. I think we'll end up with a nice upgrade to Scorpio, but I'm doubtful it will be anything people would consider 'massive', especially considering some call the Pro upgrade tiny!!

 

[function]

Isn't CPU the only 'real' unknown?

Probably the biggest and potentially most important one, yeah, but I do wonder if MS might backtrack on 4K media if it doesn't help the X1S.

I'd also like to know which generation the GPU features belong to Neo and Scorpio. Does Neo have 2nd gen colour compression? Does it have the improved geometry engine from Polaris? Does it take anything from Vega? ... does Scorpio for that matter?

The question of storage could also be a big one. Will Scorpio feature some kind of SSD cache for games, to improve on the pitiful performance of laptop 5400 HDDs? Okay, probably not. Likely to be disappointed on that one...

. I think we'll end up with a nice upgrade to Scorpio, but I'm doubtful it will be anything people would consider 'massive', especially considering some call the Pro upgrade tiny!!

Well yeah, it's all relative I suppose. CPU is indeed the big one I'm curious about. I'll go out on a limb and say that if Scorpio uses Jaguar it'll basically just be an another addition to the Neo/PS4/X1 pack.

Which, personally, I don't think would be worth waiting till the end of 2017 for.

 

[Billy Idol]

Is there any estimate about the Scorpio price? Now that we know what the Ps4 pro costs...the Scorpio must be more expensive. I think MS needs to subsidies Scorpio to make it competitive and relevant...this would be cool actually: more bang for the buck!

 

[goonergaz]

Is there any estimate about the Scorpio price? Now that we know what the Ps4 pro costs...the Scorpio must be more expensive. I think MS needs to subsidies Scorpio to make it competitive and relevant...this would be cool actually: more bang for the buck!

My guess (from my backside) is $500 - at which time the Pro will be $350, MS say the difference will be obvious...well, it will have to be !

 

[Gerry]

My guess (from my backside) is $500 - at which time the Pro will be $350, MS say the difference will be obvious...well, it will have to be !

Why? Because of an imaginary $150 price difference you plucked out of thin air?

 

[mpg1]

Scorpio being tied to XBO is going to limit it so I don't see how the spec difference over PS4 Pro will matter that much.

On top of that there is the time + price gap. Is it worth it to wait a year when Scorpio could cost $100 more? If Scorpio wasn't tethered to Xbox One I'd say yes.

 

[trainplane]

Scorpio being tied to XBO is going to limit it so I don't see how the spec difference over PS4 Pro will matter that much.

On top of that there is the time + price gap. Is it worth it to wait a year when Scorpio could cost $100 more? If Scorpio wasn't tethered to Xbox One I'd say yes.

The specs of Scorpio do matter but probably not fully realized until 2020 when Scorp Two is released. In the MS rolling generations, Scorp One will be the base for most high end games and XBox One will be a distant embedded memory, supported less and less.

Of course, if MS uses Jaguar in Scorp, we could have another anchor holding Scorp Two back.

 

[Transponster]

The specs of Scorpio do matter but probably not fully realized until 2020 when Scorp Two is released. In the MS rolling generations, Scorp One will be the base for most high end games and XBox One will be a distant embedded memory, supported less and less.

Of course, if MS uses Jaguar in Scorp, we could have another anchor holding Scorp Two back.

Hardly anyone is going to abandon X1(and PS4 St./Pro, similarly powered devices, etc.), yet support Scorpio, when 7nm consoles hit the market, regardless of the hardware, it's either gonna be 8th gen or 9th.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Scorpio being tied to XBO is going to limit it so I don't see how the spec difference over PS4 Pro will matter that much.

This. I keep saying the same for Neo. Neo gaming experiences will ultimately be shackled by games needing to run on PS4 and Scorpio will be the same. If Microsoft take a different tact to Sony, i.e. let devs diverge the game experience wider, they potentially fragment the Xbox user base which is already smaller than PS4. It would be could of interesting to see, but I can say that with the detachment of a non-Xbox owner and so it won't impact me.

It may happen, Microsoft have one hell of a history of throwing early adopters under the bus.

 

[trainplane]

Hardly anyone is going to abandon X1(and PS4 St./Pro, similarly powered devices, etc.), yet support Scorpio, when 7nm consoles hit the market, regardless of the hardware, it's either gonna be 8th gen or 9th.

My prediction is that in the first year or two of Scorp Two, you'll see AAA games that support three console iterations, but that will quickly diminish to two iterations (Sorp One and Scorp Two) when there is sufficient install base of the two Scorpios.

Why do you believe AAA games will largely support 2103 consoles in 2022 and beyond, especially if it holds Scorp Two back from its potential?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Price is going to be the biggest issue. PS4 Pro may be the right price and "good enough". I don't think anyone expected $400. Scorpio can't come in at $500.

 

[function]

This. I keep saying the same for Neo. Neo gaming experiences will ultimately be shackled by games needing to run on PS4 and Scorpio will be the same. If Microsoft take a different tact to Sony, i.e. let devs diverge the game experience wider, they potentially fragment the Xbox user base which is already smaller than PS4. It would be could of interesting to see, but I can say that with the detachment of a non-Xbox owner and so it won't impact me.

PCs scale the same core game up effectively across a range of hardware, so it's should be possible for consoles too. Especially for any kind of sandbox game where the player chooses from available parameter ranges. While not as good a full rework from the ground up you can get some pretty experience-enhancing changes.

Doubled up frame rates, increased draw distance, increased NPC / traffic, better mod support etc. Likewise, bringing higher player counts in servers - and potentially higher player count maps from the PC - would be a big change.

It's the PC that MS need to look for Scorpio enhancements, as the one system on it's own won't have the userbase on its own, particularly early on.

... and maybe Scorpio Halo 6 can get splitscreen back. :s

It may happen, Microsoft have one hell of a history of throwing early adopters under the bus.

In the console space? In terms of Zune (lol) and phones (ouch) this is true, but in consoles they seem to behave about the same as everyone else. They cut prices and end products / features early when they need to, but so do Sony and Nintendo.

The launch 360s are still fully supported to this day. They even firmware upgraded to 1080p for launch units. Of course, not so many launch units are still running ....

 

[iroboto]

This. I keep saying the same for Neo. Neo gaming experiences will ultimately be shackled by games needing to run on PS4 and Scorpio will be the same. If Microsoft take a different tact to Sony, i.e. let devs diverge the game experience wider, they potentially fragment the Xbox user base which is already smaller than PS4. It would be could of interesting to see, but I can say that with the detachment of a non-Xbox owner and so it won't impact me.

It may happen, Microsoft have one hell of a history of throwing early adopters under the bus.

What's wrong with XBO spec? MS could probably switch to nvidia and post Scorpio and probably still manage to keep backwards compatibility.

Everything being made with dx12 (all XBO games go forward) alleviates them of this mess. Developers had to, at one point in time, make games for ps3, 360, ps4 and Xbox one with varying feature sets. Now it's drastically simpler with all companies using GCN based GPUs and the same x86 family of processors and the same core functionality being available on all the consoles.

I don't see XBO holding back Scorpio and future as a strong platform argument. It's not hard at all to scale games. My GeForce 660 is 2TF and a 1070 is 6.5TF. My GeForce 660 is also 4 years old, the 1070 was just released. They can both play BF1, they are going to just look different. I don't see the 660 holding back DICE.

Let's not confuse low TF for complete absence of core features.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Cyan]

Can I have a reading about my future please?

I need to know about any unexpected financial opportunities that I should take.

there is also the love, One is a possessive and jealous girlriend