Nintendo announce: Nintendo NX

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As for Parker it seems to be a mismatch for Nintendo needs as CPU performances is a strong point of the SOC (2 super + 4 big cores).
If Nintendo really uses a Nvidia OC it has to be custom (and I suspect it is a more cost sensitive design than both Parker and Tegra X1).

Indeed. If we're going to roll with the Eurogamer story, we're probably simply looking at Tegra X1 level of HW (just at 16nmFF) + whatever uncore decisions Nintendo wants.

Who knows, maybe they'd just roll with 4xA72s and be done on the CPU side. Keep it simple.


Or maybe even throw in one more tiny core just to turn the thing on. :V

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That is, unless they are actually making a Mario Kart vehicle with Pokemon Go exclusive uncapped speed limit to drive sales. :unsure:

Moe edit: ノット・セーフ・フォー・ワーク

Dammit Kenny!
 
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Emily says it's not x86 (which does not put aside AMD because they could technically do an ARM+GCN custom design, although not likely to happen) and the Polaris comment is definitely referring to Polaris 10 alone because she claimed it wouldn't go on par with the PS4 Neo. That's not to say a GCN4 chip (e.g. low-clocked Polaris 11 equivalent) couldn't find its way into a tablet.


Nah, almost any SoC maker could develop a not cheap design using a recent CPU IP from ARM and a recent modular iGPU IP from ARM, IMGtec, Vivante, AMD, DMP and others.
Samsung, Hisilicon, Renesas, Marvell, AMlogic, Mediatek, etc. and even Nintendo alone (see 3DS + New 3DS) could build a SoC that way.
Even IMGtec could develop a MIPS + PowerVR solution that could fit Emily Rogers' description of modern non-x86 SoC.


How many? Aside from forum talk, where are the "many" sources claiming the NX will be powered by a Tegra SoC? All I see is a single source - eurogamer - whose sources have a history of being wrong regarding nintendo handheld designs. All other articles in the web are simply pointing to eurogamer. Many got the same tip beforehand but decided not to run with it because it was always second-hand information.
Eurogamer decided to run with it so if it turns out false, it's only eurogamer who's at fault.



Backing out of console? I said (because nvidia said) they're backing out of consumer handheld devices. GRID is a cloud service and the Shield TV is a set-top-box. None of them are handhelds. There is only one handheld product in the whole world using a TX1, which is the Pixel C1. The decision to back out of consumer handhelds came out after the TX1 was put into the market.




800 GFLOPs would actually be spectacular for a handheld.
Though I'm not sure how much I would trust a website that has porn picture links in the right row . They're the only ones who've mentioned 200 GFLOPs/cluster and 28nm.

(we should get a NSFW tag to that site BTW)
Context is important and I am in the camp still with the rumours saying it is a hybrid console device, not just a mobile handheld gaming product (which would then be squeezed by the best phones and tablets as that would be the 1st call for casual consumers in general).

That 800 GFLOPS is the full max configuration and we have zero other information to back up exactly how this works and no size-dimensions-power consumption-etc, nor do we know if that is an actual physical product already or whether the 4-cluster model will be released at the same time as the 1-cluster 200 GFLOPS product.
The Tegra X1 is outperformed even now by the best latest 'gaming' mobile smart phones and tablets, with the next generation gaming phones/tablets the situation becomes much greater.
As I said Nvidia was only actively pushing the X1 Maxwell for their own consumer product and only the Shield TV Console, they left their other designs as K1 such as the tablet, for awhile now Nvidia has focused on Tegra for their Shield console/Grid services/Automobile/embedded platform with the Jetson TX1 that is more industrial/drones/etc.

However Nvidia only recently backed out of a new handheld console device (not 100% sure this is the same as the shield tablet that passed in July though); when did they cancel with FCC their handheld console patented design?
It was pulled not long ago and after the product was with FCC: http://www.androidheadlines.com/2016/07/possible-new-nvidia-shield-tablet-passes-fcc.html

Regarding rumour sources it becomes compelling when looked at all together, we have Emily Rogers (who states multiple sources), Eurogamer and additionally with a different source for Digital Foundry, SegmentNext,Semi-accurate, and there are others but I am not wasting time finding them all.
Sorry but you cannot lump Samsung/Hisilicon/Renesas/MarvellMediatek\etc as industry leaders in handheld/home console HW and game software/services design and ecosystem in the context Emily Rogers raises and potential NX1 contenders.
That just seems to be a point of argument now and going nowhere.

Would be good to know when some concrete information on the DMP M3000 series and especially the 4-cluster model becomes available, or even when a physical product is shown.
Can I suggest this discussion carries on when we get an update from either Nintendo/Nvidia product/DMP and their product.
Cheers
 
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Verified... they rehacked through Eurogamer claims from what I read.

As for Parker it seems to be a mismatch for Nintendo needs as CPU performances is a strong point of the SOC (2 super + 4 big cores).
If Nintendo really uses a Nvidia OC it has to be custom (and I suspect it is a more cost sensitive design than both Parker and Tegra X1).
It seems people are getting way too enthusiastic, it happens all the time with N hardware and people set themselves for disappointment.
I suspect a 64 bit bus and I suspect N will have avoided a heterogeneous CPU set-up.

I've seen nothing going on at Nintendo headquarter that leads me to believe that the company would have changed its approach of the business. Expecting a jump from the new 3DS and the Wii U to a high end system is desillusional... sadly.

Nintendo needs to: keep doing its stuff, undercut its competitors, and lower their costs significantly. We have yet to hear about a significant reorg of their game division, business as usual :(
Can you show where SegmentNext got it from Digital Foundry, seems I missed that.
Regarding performance, well the Tegra X1 is dated now and losing out in some game/3D benchmarks to the very latest smart phones and tablets.
It would be fair to say a handheld console needs to be more powerful than what can be expected from the best mobile smartphones and tablets over the next few years, otherwise there is no point or selling point for a casual gamer to have a very good smartphone or tablet and also a handheld console.
As seen recently the gaming IP is not enough to get consumers to buy a Nintendo product.
Another consideration is if you accept or not the rumours about it being a hybrid console, for the latter it does need greater capabilities although this should be covered if they look to spec better than future smartphones/tablets over next couple of years.
Cheers
 
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otherwise there is no point or selling point for a casual gamer to have a very good smartphone or tablet and also a handheld console.
Even if there are good points for one or another, it's kind of an artificial competition. You don't use both at the same time and as you've said, these can be equal devices (in terms of performance). It might be simpler for N to add some Android layer, then there is no "either new phone or NNX". At least for parents with kids that could be a good choice.
 
The youtuber took the DMP GPU for NX idea from the japanese articles and some posts on social networks from japanese industry commenters.
I know these info bites aren't as solid for us westerners as the eurogamer rumors, but eurogamer has been wrong before, especially regarding Nintendo's consoles.
There are some Japanese media (like nikkei) having good credits.

As for the above Japanese article, it only says that "if NX will adopt DMP or not" becomes a subject. The report does not point out anything; it is even not a rumor. In fact all things about DMP for NX are purely speculation without any reliable report.
 
That 800 GFLOPS is the full max configuration and we have zero other information to back up exactly how this works and no size-dimensions-power consumption-etc, nor do we know if that is an actual physical product already or whether the 4-cluster model will be released at the same time as the 1-cluster 200 GFLOPS product.
The "maximum 200 GFLOPs / cluster" has only appeared in that website with porn links all over. At least to me..
Neither that or the 28nm manufacturing process claim has appeared in DMP's press release.

The Tegra X1 is outperformed even now by the best latest 'gaming' mobile smart phones and tablets
No, it's not..

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Even the lower-clocked TX1 in Pixel C1 stands 25% faster than the second-fastest Snapdragon 820 in most tests, and the only other ARM SoC to surpass it is the higher clocked A9X in the 12" ipad pro.
I'm pretty sure that 2017's top-end SoCs will surpass the TX1 (and probably the TX2 though that chip may never appear in an Android device to make a direct comparison), but right now the TX1 is pretty much the state-of-the-art on 3D performance.
Even the 1.5 year-old Tegra K1 stands among Snapdragon 820 designs, and definitely above the S810.


Regarding rumour sources it becomes compelling when looked at all together, we have Emily Rogers (who states multiple sources), Eurogamer and additionally with a different source for Digital Foundry, SegmentNext,Semi-accurate, and there are others but I am not wasting time finding them all.

First off, Digital Foundry is just the technical portion of Eurogamer, so they're the same entity as a source.
SegmentNext I had never heard about. I take it you're mentioning this article? It's a 6-day article claiming "the upcoming chip hasn’t been formally named as Nvidia TEGRA X2 and we know it as “Tegra-next” which is likely “Parker.” This is not true since the Tegra chips in PX2 have been confirmed to be named Tegra X2 for several months. They simply invented the "Tegra-next" part AFAIK, which doesn't bode very well for their sturdiness as a source.

As for Emily Rogers and Semi-accurate, like I said I do believe that Tegra X1 was used as a placeholder for the kind of performance to expect in dev kits, but ultimately Nintendo never planned to use that chip for their console, which may have generated some confusion.

Would be good to know when some concrete information on the DMP M3000 series and especially the 4-cluster model becomes available, or even when a physical product is shown.
The press release clearly says that during the first half of 2017 there will be SoCs shipping with the M3000 GPUs. You could argue that it doesn't say Q1 2017, but then again it doesn't say Q2 2017 either.
 
There seems to be a lot of anticipation here.

For Nintendo's sake, there better be as much excitement after the public unveiling.
 
The "maximum 200 GFLOPs / cluster" has only appeared in that website with porn links all over. At least to me..
Neither that or the 28nm manufacturing process claim has appeared in DMP's press release.


Even the lower-clocked TX1 in Pixel C1 stands 25% faster than the second-fastest Snapdragon 820 in most tests, and the only other ARM SoC to surpass it is the higher clocked A9X in the 12" ipad pro.
I'm pretty sure that 2017's top-end SoCs will surpass the TX1 (and probably the TX2 though that chip may never appear in an Android device to make a direct comparison), but right now the TX1 is pretty much the state-of-the-art on 3D performance.
Even the 1.5 year-old Tegra K1 stands among Snapdragon 820 designs, and definitely above the S810.




First off, Digital Foundry is just the technical portion of Eurogamer, so they're the same entity as a source.
SegmentNext I had never heard about. I take it you're mentioning this article? It's a 6-day article claiming "the upcoming chip hasn’t been formally named as Nvidia TEGRA X2 and we know it as “Tegra-next” which is likely “Parker.” This is not true since the Tegra chips in PX2 have been confirmed to be named Tegra X2 for several months. They simply invented the "Tegra-next" part AFAIK, which doesn't bode very well for their sturdiness as a source.

As for Emily Rogers and Semi-accurate, like I said I do believe that Tegra X1 was used as a placeholder for the kind of performance to expect in dev kits, but ultimately Nintendo never planned to use that chip for their console, which may have generated some confusion.


The press release clearly says that during the first half of 2017 there will be SoCs shipping with the M3000 GPUs. You could argue that it doesn't say Q1 2017, but then again it doesn't say Q2 2017 either.
LOL that is the link given by one of the Japanese tech sites and their article, I never had any of the dodgy stuff, but see it now quite funny :)
Here is a news link without any nudge nudge wink wink say no more stuff :) http://www.jinri-toutiao.com/id/582801.html

Regarding SegmentNext, they were right about the naming, check the slides released yesterday at Computerbase.de, they say at the bottom Nvidia Tegra Next "Parker" : https://www.computerbase.de/2016-08/nvidia-tegra-parker-denver-2-arm-pascal-16-nm/
I still call it 'X2' myself but with quotes but that is not the name yet released, in fact this time on the Nvidia blogs they do not call it anything but Parker while with the release of the previous Drive PX they specifically mentioned X1.

My point about performance is that it needs to be compared to the very latest mobile smartphone and tablet designs and also considered against the next gen coming next year and also early 2018.
Also remember you are looking at a full blown X1 TV console that has none of the size (critically depth)/thermal-cooling/circuitry limitations of either a smartphone or tablet, so that result needs to be weighted when considering X1 in a smaller handheld device.
Regarding recent performance of the latest tablet/smartphones it also depends upon the benchmark as there are several the X1 still loses to the Ipad Pro in the link you provided..
The Pixel C unfortunately also cannot be used as a reliable comparison as that is more of a notebook type solution and dimension.

As we are comparing a mains powered home console to a mobile smartphone and tablet, worth putting more weight for now on the Ipad Pro as some of the newer devices arent coming out until a bit later this year/early next year, and of course needs to be remembered this is currently comparing a full home console X1 to much smaller mobile products, and whatever the Nintendo NX is it will be smaller than the Shield TV and with associated size constraints.
However going through GFXBench list and the various tests, there are ones that the full blown Tegra home console loses quite noteably to the Ipad Pro, such as the 1080p T-Rex Offscreen and 1080p Manhattan offscreen.
I had other benchmarks that I can no longer find unfortunately showing the strength of a few of the latest smartphones over Tegra X1 from a core (single and multi) perspective - spent ages looking for them as well bah.

And yeah Digital Foundry is another team at Eurogamer but they had their own source regarding the NX leaks separate to the initial Eurogamer one.
Cheers
 
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There seems to be a lot of anticipation here.

For Nintendo's sake, there better be as much excitement after the public unveiling.
Not really :)
It would only be exciting if they bothered going 1 Tegra X2 processor combined with a special low spec/low powered mobile GPU, or it might be interesting as a dual Tegra X2 implementation but those SoC are large so again not sure they can do that for when mobile.
It could be exciting from the perspective that it is feasible that when home docked the station provides extra GPU grunt, or whether Nintendo has any interesting ideas and license pertaining to Grid cloud service - again depends if they go Nvidia and if they do anything like that.
Cheers
 
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CSI PC I was speaking about the French IGN article which does not much further (if at all) than quoting Eurogamer.

As for the Tegra X1 I suspect the performances are held significantly by the memory set-up /low bandwidth.

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My point about performance is that it needs to be compared to the very latest mobile smartphone and tablet designs and also considered against the next gen coming next year and also early 2018.
But the TX1 is compared to the latest mobile smartphone and tablet designs and it wins by a sizeable margin, even though it's made on a more power-hungry process.
You claimed the "Tegra X1 is outperformed even now by the best latest 'gaming' mobile smart phones and tablets".
This is simply not true. Even in a tablet form, it's not surpassed by the latest and most powerful smart phones in the market.

The Pixel C unfortunately also cannot be used as a reliable comparison as that is more of a notebook type solution and dimension.

The Pixel C is a 7mm thick 10" tablet. It's practically the same size as the ipad air. How is that a notebook type solution?

Regarding recent performance of the latest tablet/smartphones it also depends upon the benchmark as there are several the X1 still loses to the Ipad Pro in the link you provided..
There are two ipad pros, the 12.9" and the 9.7" models. The 12.9" one has a higher clocked SoC and twice the memory bandwidth of the smaller model.

If anything, it's the comparison with the 13" ipad that seems a bit unfair. Now that's a laptop-esque frame, even if a passively cooled one.[/QUOTE]
 
CSI PC I was speaking about the French IGN article which does not much further (if at all) than quoting Eurogamer.

As for the Tegra X1 I suspect the performances are held significantly by the memory set-up /low bandwidth.

.
Ah thanks for the clarification.
And yeah it is a nightmare to try and keep track on who had sources or were using other sites information as their 'sources say'.
Regarding memory/bandwidth, I guess we need to wait for the whitepaper that provides additional information as I cannot see anyone getting their hands on a Tegra 'X2' for a little while.
Thanks
 
But the TX1 is compared to the latest mobile smartphone and tablet designs and it wins by a sizeable margin, even though it's made on a more power-hungry process.
You claimed the "Tegra X1 is outperformed even now by the best latest 'gaming' mobile smart phones and tablets".
This is simply not true. Even in a tablet form, it's not surpassed by the latest and most powerful smart phones in the market.



The Pixel C is a 7mm thick 10" tablet. It's practically the same size as the ipad air. How is that a notebook type solution?


There are two ipad pros, the 12.9" and the 9.7" models. The 12.9" one has a higher clocked SoC and twice the memory bandwidth of the smaller model.

If anything, it's the comparison with the 13" ipad that seems a bit unfair. Now that's a laptop-esque frame, even if a passively cooled one.
And what I said is true as the best tablet can beat the Tegra X1 and best smartphones can beat it well in single-multi core benchmarks and more generally when it is not the dedicated home console Tegra X1, however I should had emphasised again (I did in the beginning of that post) that the context we are talking about is a hybrid design meaning it also has to be mobile (I am thinking more of size-thermal limitations rather than say power for now), furthermore I said Tegra X1 in general sense meaning as a SoC to broaden context beyond just the dedicated home X1 Shield console.
And this aligns with my very 1st sentence in that thread:
me said:
Context is important and I am in the camp still with the rumours saying it is a hybrid console device.
The point you are picking up on is where I said :
me said:
The Tegra X1 is outperformed even now by the best latest 'gaming' mobile smart phones and tablets
.
Also to show I am not trying to wriggle out of this that quote followed on in the same section I was talking about the performance of the 200-800 GFLOPS DMP processor, and was part of the same context.
Anyway as I pointed out in the other 1080p benchmarks the Ipad Pro beats even the Tegra X1 Console, so yes my point still stands and that the smartphones beat the Tegra X1 in single/multi core benchmarks as I mentioned earlier and looking at the X1 from a more mobile perspective match/beat it then.

You just showed the one 1080p the X1 was best in.
In 1080p Manhattan Offscreen the Ipad Pro is 26% faster.
In 1080p Manhattan 3.1 Offscreen the Ipad Pro is 21% faster.
In 1080p T-Rex Offscreen the Ipad Pro is 34% faster.
Now this is against a full blown size home console so you cannot complain about my point about the best tablets, and the smartphones are beating the Tegra X1 in different tests relating to single/multi core, and especially multi-core.
The next gen of smartphones are not that far away and they then will be beating even the dedicated X1 TV console not just in the core related benchmarks but also those GFXbench tests.

Even if you include the Pixel C then as a tablet, it loses even more to the IPad Pro which is already beating the Tegra X1 console, but again in tests outside of the Car Chase even current smartphones are close or beat it.
1080p Manhattan 3.1 Offscreen, Pixel C 33.6fps and top smartphones 32fps.
1080p Manhattan Offscreen, Pixel C 46.3fps and top smartphones 47fps.
1080p T-Rex Offscreen, Pixel C 84.5fps and top smartphones 90fps.
Then as I say in multi-core benchmarks they beat X1 pretty well, which may be why Nvidia is emphasising the improvement in single and multi-core performance with the 'X2'.

Can I suggest we pick this up again when either of us has more information on either Nvidia Tegra/Nintendo NX/DMP M3000 series.
Cheers
 
I'd only be excited if it had PowerVR Wizard, otherwise it's just like any other PC out there... or Mobile/Tablet out there if ARM+GPU...
It might be good and nice and fast but it won't be exciting in the least...
 
I'd only be excited if it had PowerVR Wizard, otherwise it's just like any other PC out there... or Mobile/Tablet out there if ARM+GPU...
It might be good and nice and fast but it won't be exciting in the least...
Not in terms of overall rendering pipeline, no.
It is like the PS4/XBox1, I predicted a PC APU with beefed up graphics and GPU memory bus, and apart from the ESRAM, that's what we got. Boring perhaps but cheap on R&D and straightforward to produce code for.
I can't really see this changing much going forward, unfortunately. What is out there which is compelling enough to convince a boardroom full of beancounters that a custom solution requiring custom software approaches is a great idea?
Any redblooded 3D-tech enthusiast can't help themselves from being enthusiastic about something like Wizard. But just how much compromise would it truly be worth to us? To the average gameplayer? To those that just want the next Yo-kai Watch?

Apple would be a better bet when it comes to offering a solution like that, on the other hand it would mean them being completely locked in to ImgTech proprietary IP.

It's a great example of something that has great technological appeal, but is left searching for a market niche where it makes sense.
 
Nintendo had kind of custom designs, on handheld anyway, and on console-SOCs with PowerPC and more or less fancy stuff (e.g. 1T-SRam,EDRam), but that can't compete with of the shelve socs, as these are polished for ages. you won't pop out of nowhere and beat that. Hence it's technically the best choice to get something existing, there is still room for customization. I bet NV is not bothered to add twice or 4x SMs to the X1, if N wants to pay for tape outs, testing etc. And that's where money is probably spent more wisely. Especially for N, as most of their customers don't care on what "toaster" the games run as long as there is Mario and Zelda.
Before NDS and PSP were released, when spec were public, I've seen a lot of guys in tech forums betting how NDS gonna die, not having even bilinear filtering, some laughable number of polys/frame compared to PSP...

I think the most N has to worry about is just that you can play games on phones as well. If they don't add the android store, kids will have to decide between phones and NX, and it's less about quality of software, but rather what all your friends are playing.
 
Emily says it's not x86 (which does not put aside AMD because they could technically do an ARM+GCN custom design, although not likely to happen) and the Polaris comment is definitely referring to Polaris 10 alone because she claimed it wouldn't go on par with the PS4 Neo. That's not to say a GCN4 chip (e.g. low-clocked Polaris 11 equivalent) couldn't find its way into a tablet.


Nah, almost any SoC maker could develop a not cheap design using a recent CPU IP from ARM and a recent modular iGPU IP from ARM, IMGtec, Vivante, AMD, DMP and others.
Samsung, Hisilicon, Renesas, Marvell, AMlogic, Mediatek, etc. and even Nintendo alone (see 3DS + New 3DS) could build a SoC that way.
Even IMGtec could develop a MIPS + PowerVR solution that could fit Emily Rogers' description of modern non-x86 SoC.


How many? Aside from forum talk, where are the "many" sources claiming the NX will be powered by a Tegra SoC? All I see is a single source - eurogamer - whose sources have a history of being wrong regarding nintendo handheld designs. All other articles in the web are simply pointing to eurogamer. Many got the same tip beforehand but decided not to run with it because it was always second-hand information.
Eurogamer decided to run with it so if it turns out false, it's only eurogamer who's at fault.



Backing out of console? I said (because nvidia said) they're backing out of consumer handheld devices. GRID is a cloud service and the Shield TV is a set-top-box. None of them are handhelds. There is only one handheld product in the whole world using a TX1, which is the Pixel C1. The decision to back out of consumer handhelds came out after the TX1 was put into the market.




800 GFLOPs would actually be spectacular for a handheld.
Though I'm not sure how much I would trust a website that has porn picture links in the right row . They're the only ones who've mentioned 200 GFLOPs/cluster and 28nm.

(we should get a NSFW tag to that site BTW)
Wasn't one of AMD's supposed gaming design wins supposed to. ARM base
 
Yeah that's the one I was talking about. I would have linked it, but I am still too new. Doesn't that kinda mean that at least one major gaming company is going to use ARM in a device?
Yeah and I agree worth keeping an eye on, although this would be the 1st time in recent history for AMD that there was no leaks, and man they seem like a sieve when it comes to leaks 1 year before a product is nearly ready.
Even if the leak did not mention Nintendo, we would normally by now be inundated with latest 'ARM+GCN product for gaming' info.
I think I would be more stunned with no leaks rather than the win if it is AMD :D
Cheers
 
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