Optimizations on Xbox 360

[Liandry]

I'm playing on Xbox 360 for 10 years now, I've already complited more that 150 games on it, and also some Arcade games. For all these years I've noticet what graphics become better and better n that console. And I thing it was bigest leap from first games to latest games. I understand what there were a lot of optimisations, engines improvements and and developers were able to get better and better tools etc., but still can't complitely understand how such huge leap was possible. It's so big what I think there is possible to make remakes of some Xbox 360 games for Xbox 360! Just immagine. If developers take Gears of War 1 and make it on Gears of War 3 engine, that would be completely different level of graphics in same game on same platform. Or Assassin's Creed 1 game on Assassin's Creed Rogue engine. In Rogue they used so good code on Xbox 360 what it's just hard to belive what this game runs on 360 until you see it by yourself. Next example Call of Duty 2 on Call of Duty Advanced Warfare Engine, also gigant leap. And there's a lot of examples.
How do you think is biggest difference between first and last games was on Xbox 360? And how really it was possibe? Let's talk about it. And here is a reminder.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Your comparison is a bit imbalanced as it depends on how bad the launch titles were, rather than just how good subsequent optimisations were. If the earliest titles were quick ports and architecturally naive creations, it's not optimisation rather than just learning the basics. PS3 had probably a more pronounced improvement from launch titles to final titles mostly because the launch titles were so terrible because no-one could make sense of the hardware.

So COD 2 was just a PC port with little understanding of managing the eDRAM and none of the modern shading features of the more advanced GPU, which is why it looks so weak by comparison.

If you want to talk optimisation rather than learning the ropes, you need to compare mid-gen games to end-of-life games. The first titles are just getting to grips with the basics long before clever optimisation comes into the picture.

 

[Liandry]

If the earliest titles were quick ports and architecturally naive creations, it's not optimisation rather than just learning the basics.

Gears of War 1 wasn't just quick port. Same with Assassin's Creed 1. I meant also what games had improvements with each new game. Maybe there wer't big leap in each next game, but some improvements were. Look at it like Gears 1, Gears 2 and Gears 3. Same with other game series.

PS3 had probably a more pronounced improvement from launch titles to final titles mostly because the launch titles were so terrible because no-one could make sense of the hardware.

THat's true. But I just don't like PS3 in that way, because on PS3 almost a hard work were done on Cell. Xbox 360 in my opinion is a lot more balanced and good machine in terms of hardware. Almost all graphics were done on GPU.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I actually meant PS2 when I typed PS3. And I'm not trying to make this thread about the PlayStations! Just, you need to provide better source material than a COD screenshot because that's a worst-case example. If you want to compare Gears 1 (and I'd recommend Gears 2 instead as Gears 1 was still somewhat architecturally naive - all first titles are!) to Gears 3, provide comparable screenshots as a talking point.

For example, using PS3 because I haven't owned a 360, to look at PS3 optimisations I wouldn't compare Uncharted 1 to Uncharted 3, but Uncharted 2. Uncharted 1 was ND learning how to develop for the system. Uncharted 2 was what ND could do understanding the system based on UC1. UC3 (or TLoU) is what ND could do eaking out the best optimisations learnt from UC2. Gains from UC1 to UC2 are understanding the system fundamentals. Gains from UC2 to UC3 are from optimisation.

 

[Liandry]

If you want to talk optimisation rather than learning the ropes, you need to compare mid-gen games to end-of-life games.

I did it with Assassin's Creed games. First game was released when 360 was 2 years old.
One more good example is Dead Space series.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Those images are a much better reference, and for one thing what you're looking at isn't just optimisation but new techniques used across the board. Baked global illumination, SSAO and screen space reflections, for example. That is, the reason these features didn't exist in earlier games wasn't because the hardware was maxed out already due to inefficient use, and only later optimisations freed up the hardware to implement these features, but because they literally hadn't been invented and no-one thought to use them.

 

[Liandry]

If you want to compare Gears 1 (and I'd recommend Gears 2 instead as Gears 1 was still somewhat architecturally naive - all first titles are!) to Gears 3, provide comparable screenshots as a talking point.

I will do exactly as you say! :smile:

Gears 2


Gears 3

Gears 2 textures


Gears 3 textures


And not second not third game can beat this from Gears of War Judgment.


Gears of War Judgment sometimes looks almost like CG movie!

 

[Liandry]

For example, using PS3 because I haven't owned a 360, to look at PS3 optimisations I wouldn't compare Uncharted 1 to Uncharted 3, but Uncharted 2. Uncharted 1 was ND learning how to develop for the system. Uncharted 2 was what ND could do understanding the system based on UC1. UC3 (or TLoU) is what ND could do eaking out the best optimisations learnt from UC2. Gains from UC1 to UC2 are understanding the system fundamentals. Gains from UC2 to UC3 are from optimisation.

You are right, I understood your point! Really you are right.

 

[Liandry]

That is, the reason these features didn't exist in earlier games wasn't because the hardware was maxed out already due to inefficient use, and only later optimisations freed up the hardware to implement these features, but because they literally hadn't been invented and no-one thought to use them.

That gives a lot of answers. I also think maybe developers use some trade offs and use different effects what give better picture, but those effects cost same calcuation time.

 

[milk]

Art-side improvements also are a factor. As artists learn how to take the best out of the engines they've got, what looks good, what dlesn't, what to avoid, etc...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Perhaps the question for this thread isn't quite right? Are you really wanting to know everything involved in creating better quality games, or specifically what 360-specific optimisations have been used?

 

[Liandry]

Art-side improvements also are a factor. As artists learn how to take the best out of the engines they've got, what looks good, what dlesn't, what to avoid, etc...

Thanks! Then my thoughts were right!

Perhaps the question for this thread isn't quite right? Are you really wanting to know everything involved in creating better quality games, or specifically what 360-specific optimisations have been used?

I think it woud be good to discus both. But as I work on non commercial project connected to Xbox 360, it's more important for me know more about it.
As I said before I understand what optimisations etc. is the point, but how they can be such big. Just look at Gears screens above, it's unbelivable difference. I uploaded screens from second and third game, just as you said. If I put there some screens from first game difference wil be even more dramatic. And first game also is a lot better than all Xbox 360 games before it. A lot better!!! That is amazing improvements! A lot more polygons (maybe even 3-4 times more), a lot better texture resolution, absolutey many many times more complex lighting, better shadows, enormous improvements in post-process effects. And those improvements were through all life cycle. I finished Battlefield Hardline some weeks ago. The game was released in 2015 and even this game had some improvements and looks better that Crysis 3, Metro Last Light and Battlefield 4, which all were already unbelivable for Xbox 360.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

As I said before I understand what optimisations etc. is the point, but how they can be such big.

But what you're comparing isn't just the result of optimisation. It's also technique. So identifying which improvements are a result of optimisation is going to be very difficult. By and large optimisation doesn't net you massive gains. You save 5% here, 10% there, and squeeze a few more FPS out of the engine. The big changes are engine design and techniques, so writing a tile based solution from the ground up, say.

 

[Liandry]

Ok, let's start then. Texture resolution improvement is optimization or something elso? Or it also depends on new engine?

 

[AlNom]

View attachment 1488
Gears of War Judgment sometimes looks almost like CG movie!

Minus the screen tear, of course.

Art-side improvements also are a factor. As artists learn how to take the best out of the engines they've got, what looks good, what dlesn't, what to avoid, etc...

Speaking of Gears, People Can Fly worked on the SP DLC for Gears 3. Their experience probably shows in the more dramatic lighting seen in Judgment.

 

[Liandry]

Minus the screen tear, of course.

That's true!

Their experience probably shows in the more dramatic lighting seen in Judgment.

Don't understand you! You want to say what lighting in Judgment was better?

 

[Liandry]

Some new screens.

Battefield Bad Company.



Battlefield Bad Company 2.



Battlefield Bad Company.



Battlefield Bad Company 2.

 

[Liandry]

Interesting interview with Nick Baker about Xbox 360 Architecture!

 

[stranno]

In Assassin's Creed every citizen acts as an individual entity. In Assassin's Creed 2+ every group of three or more people acts as an entity. It seems that improved a lot the performance.

Watch Dogs looks really good on 360 and the peformance is not that bad with the latest patch.

 

[phoenix_chipset]

360 had a lot of legroom, it was the last console that was truly state of the art at release.

Halo 3 to 4 is just insane, even though water was better in 3.

Btw can anyone tell me approximately how much better Xenos is vs. Hollywood in multiples?