Nintendo announce: Nintendo NX

[Blazkowicz]

32GB of compressed assets can't look good on TV?!?
Yeah. Right.
Besides, where is the source for this 32GB hard limit rumour?

I doubt a real hard limit exists. Much often what is "supported" is the biggest currently available size, so you have instance "up 128GB" SD slots that take 256GB SD cards just fine, or even Intel CPU that can use memory DIMMs double the officially supported size.
Moreover even Atari 2600 games used bank switching schemes to breach the addressing limit (absurdly low, like 4096 bytes and if that's for the whole machine and the cartridge gets to use half that address space, then it was 2048 bytes for the supposed max size)

But as for the 32GB rumor, I suspect that not only it's unsubstanciated : it might have been 32Gb, not 32GB.
So 4GB cartridges, which I find quite big btw for a cartridge historically.
I assume it'd be from this product page (vendor sells real ROM up to 128Mb! bigger sizes are flash that pose as ROM)

http://www.macronix.com/CachePages/en-us-Product-ROM-default.aspx#128Mb

• Gaming Machine XtraROM®
  This device, while maintaining the same checksum of the content during lifetime of gaming machines, is widely used in Pachinko and PachinSlot for video/audio, and code storage. It features 32 I/O for fast speed, 70-SSOP package, and up to 32Gb in density.
  
  
• ASIC XtraROM®
  Macronix excels at customized XtraROM® from IC design to content programming to quick delivery. We can build your DRM(Digital Right Management) scheme in the circuit of XtraROM® to protect your content against piracy. Our designs are used in handheld gaming consoles over the world.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

But as for the 32GB rumor, I suspect that not only it's unsubstanciated : it might have been 32Gb, not 32GB.
So 4GB cartridges, which I find quite big btw for a cartridge historically.

Yeah it's from the Eurogamer article where they had this to say.

NX will use game cartridges as its choice of physical media, multiple sources have also told us.

Considering NX's basis as a handheld first and foremost, the choice may not come as too much of a surprise - although we have heard the suggestion Nintendo recommends a 32GB cartridge, which is small when considering the size of many modern games.

Hopefully, what they heard wasn't due to a typo. As 4 GB would be pretty small. For reference, the Nintendo 3DS already uses up to 4 GB ROMs for it's cartridges. The download versions of the games using 4 GB ROMs won't actually fit on a 4 GB microsd card (the OS takes up some space).

If true, then it's just a recommendation and actual games will likely also use smaller sizes and have the option to go larger.

Regards,
SB

 

[Rangers]

Eurogamer said 32 GB right? Not 32 Gb...

You can pick up 32 GB USb drives for like, 5 bucks nowdays.

4GB sounds way too small, 32GB sounds like more than plenty.

But, now that I think about it, considering PS360 usually operated at ~7GB of DVd size (yes I know PS3 had Blu Ray but most games didn't use it or effectively use it) if you expect NX to be PS360 level maybe 4GB could work in a pinch...seems too low though.

 

[Globalisateur]

I doubt a real hard limit exists. Much often what is "supported" is the biggest currently available size, so you have instance "up 128GB" SD slots that take 256GB SD cards just fine, or even Intel CPU that can use memory DIMMs double the officially supported size.
Moreover even Atari 2600 games used bank switching schemes to breach the addressing limit (absurdly low, like 4096 bytes and if that's for the whole machine and the cartridge gets to use half that address space, then it was 2048 bytes for the supposed max size)

But as for the 32GB rumor, I suspect that not only it's unsubstanciated : it might have been 32Gb, not 32GB.
So 4GB cartridges, which I find quite big btw for a cartridge historically.
I assume it'd be from this product page (vendor sells real ROM up to 128Mb! bigger sizes are flash that pose as ROM)

http://www.macronix.com/CachePages/en-us-Product-ROM-default.aspx#128Mb

• Gaming Machine XtraROM®
  This device, while maintaining the same checksum of the content during lifetime of gaming machines, is widely used in Pachinko and PachinSlot for video/audio, and code storage. It features 32 I/O for fast speed, 70-SSOP package, and up to 32Gb in density.
  
  
• ASIC XtraROM®
  Macronix excels at customized XtraROM® from IC design to content programming to quick delivery. We can build your DRM(Digital Right Management) scheme in the circuit of XtraROM® to protect your content against piracy. Our designs are used in handheld gaming consoles over the world.

Some 3DS games already need 4GB cartdriges. The 3DS can theoretically have 8GB cartdriges. Also the NX will need to have cartridges at least as big as Wii U discs which are 25GB, hence the 32GB max number.

 

[Blazkowicz]

The US has crazy low prices on USB sticks, here 5 bucks (not including tax) would get you an 8GB one or a 4GB remnant.

Well, I'd want fun action/arcade games anyway. Maybe I'm not the right person to ask, but I'd like 960x540 with strong anti-aliasing, too, and as for the game if that's e.g. a side-scroller where you play as a caveman and you throw cartoon bones at dinosaurs to kill them, and you get to play with a buddy, I'd like it.
Or a game where you whip gorgon heads, candles and mummies. Easy enough, except you have to try very hard to not fall out of stairs, and you have no "air control" when jumping or falling. I'll call that Candle Whipper 3D : The Reckoning.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

32GB isn't a "max" number, it's a "minimum".

 

[Entropy]

Macronix have been able to deliver 8GB cartridges for the 3DS. These are produced on 75nm lithography. They have recently upgraded their capabilities for this class of products to 32nm lithography which in itself would allow 32-64GB capacities, with no other changes or upgrades. It is pretty much a given that they can supply whatever capacity product is needed in practise.
32GB is a facile estimated lower bound, and makes practical sense for shipping games, but it is a bit too easy to arrive at by simplistic extrapolation.

 

[rapso]

Is there any technical reason for a size limit of cartridges in the scope .. edit: too slow

Cartridges are a nice way to extend memory, N could ship with 3GB memory like shield TV, but you can still rely on 30GB of assets. you don't really need "streaming", less worry about latency and modern MMUs could handle paging in the background (assuming the cartridge won't match ram speed).

 

[Grall]

What if they sell the nx with the option of an external gpu dock as well as a normal dock?

What if pigs fly?

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Is there any technical reason for a size limit of cartridges in the scope .. edit: too slow

Well the SDXC standard is already a couple of years old and its theoretical limit is 2TB.
As long as they don't screw up with some addressing limits, there shouldn't be any hard limit that would hamper the NX's cartridge capacity in any practical way.

 

[turkey]

Would the gpu not just run at a lower clock and or core count when portable and ramp up clocks and cooling when docked?
30fps handheld 60fps docked and or other changes to make the handheld mode more frugle on heat / power.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Macronix have been able to deliver 8GB cartridges for the 3DS. These are produced on 75nm lithography. They have recently upgraded their capabilities for this class of products to 32nm lithography which in itself would allow 32-64GB capacities, with no other changes or upgrades. It is pretty much a given that they can supply whatever capacity product is needed in practise.
32GB is a facile estimated lower bound, and makes practical sense for shipping games, but it is a bit too easy to arrive at by simplistic extrapolation.

What are the performance characteristics of these carts?

 

[cheapchips]

What are the performance characteristics of these carts?

Whatever the lower bound, they presumably can't be quicker than the worst SD card, since downloaded title could be running off that.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Worst SD card isn't really much good, so needs to be much faster than that to provide comparable performance to console HDD. Potentially they could be fast, or slow, or anywhere in between. The old "alternative distribution method" thread has revisited at length the cost <> performance pros/cons of carts, but we've not really talked about technologies other than flash. It'll be interesting to learn what the performance of ROM cards is like and what sort of loading times and streaming performance that'll give games.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

IIRC, slow SD cards in Nintendo consoles would often send in a warning that they weren't proper for storing games. All they have to do is run a short scripted benchmark when a new SD card is detected.
If the card can't handle e.g. 20MB/s reading, then the games won't install.

They could go crazy and adopt Samsung's UFS+SD slot, and only allow UFS cards to store games. Samsung would love that.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

At what price for 32 GBs? High speed (300 mb/s) SD is in the tens of dollars retail. So unless games are upwards of $80 each, I'm not sure that's a goer.

 

[RDGoodla]

The dock of NX is mysterious. Why not just make a mini-hdmi port on the main part of NX? In fact after considering the retail price, the BOM of the dock should be as low as possible. If the whole system is targeting $199, at most the dock may have a video encoder for remote play and video recording.The more functions it has, the more expensive it becomes.

 

[wco81]

I don't know if it's a thing in other countries but in the US, a lot of people under 30 rarely sit in front of a TV.

Instead they stream movies and shows on their phones.

That is why it might have greater appeal if Nintendo lets you just buy the handheld portion, instead of having to buy a more expensive bundle with a base that connects to the TV.

I'm not under 30 but I haven't booted up my PS4 in months, while I play these little games (mostly turn-based) every day on my iPhone and iPad. These devices are always within reach and you can play them anywhere and anytime, as opposed to going down to the room with the big screen, turning on the console and switching the source to the one where the PS4 is connected.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

At what price for 32 GBs? High speed (300 mb/s) SD is in the tens of dollars retail. So unless games are upwards of $80 each, I'm not sure that's a goer.

I only said Samsung would love it. I never said the consumers would, lol.

 

[Grall]

Why not just make a mini-hdmi port on the main part of NX?

And have a fat cord running across the livingroom, connecting straight to your TV? I think most would say "no thanks!" to that. It was bad enough when controllers were corded and kids/dog/stressed parents came running through and snagged cables and pulled your console to the floor. Imagine your entire TV toppling over!

Besides, connectors take up a (comparatively) large amount of internal volume, and put strain on the device. Better to have it on a docking station.

as opposed to going down to the room with the big screen, turning on the console and switching the source to the one where the PS4 is connected.

Any decent flatscreen these days should support HDMI-CEC, and thus autoswitch when you turn on PS4. Even my shitty midrange Samsung that's a few years old does it, even though sometimes it just turns on and starts showing the last TV channel watched without actually switching to HDMI-in...