Retro thread of sub 100 Watt nostalgia

[Grall]

I think the yamaha chips are a pretty clear improvement over the vanilla nes.

I suppose I have to agree on a technical level, and it's probably easier for an artist to do what they want, but I personally find from an emotional perspective that the Yamaha FM sound is thin and tinny in comparison. It lacks life, and spirit. It's just electronic buzzing, often with a harsh edge to it. *shrug*

 

[dogen]

I suppose I have to agree on a technical level, and it's probably easier for an artist to do what they want, but I personally find from an emotional perspective that the Yamaha FM sound is thin and tinny in comparison. It lacks life, and spirit. It's just electronic buzzing, often with a harsh edge to it. *shrug*

I think games like streets of rage and the hybrid front (among others) prove that it can be more than lifeless buzzing...

And I'd never describe fm as thin either, have you heard contra hard corps or thunder force? Nothing like that on nintendo.

 

[dogen]

Since this thread is supposed to be about cool demos and homebrew, here's another mega drive tech demo by the same guy as the wolf3d port.

On a completely unrelated note, I found this interesting pc-engine demo a while back.

Maybe someone has an idea how it's done?

 

[Exophase]

Maybe someone has an idea how it's done?

This is a clever trick. It's software rendered and doesn't involve any sprites, but the demo actually only draws one Bonk at a time. The appearance of motion is made by cycling through four different screens where the Bonk's are offset at different increments.

If you set an emulator to skip 11 out of 12 frames (the actual update rate is only 20FPS) you'll see it no longer moves.

 

[milk]

Ha! That's very clever indeed. Though I would guess they cant hold 4 distinct near-full-screen frames in vram at once. Do they keep them in main ram and transfer the new frame to vram at every animation tick then?

 

[Exophase]

Ha! That's very clever indeed. Though I would guess they cant hold 4 distinct near-full-screen frames in vram at once. Do they keep them in main ram and transfer the new frame to vram at every animation tick then?

PC-Engine VRAM is 64KB, while the main RAM is only 8KB.

The pseudo-framebuffers flipped in this demo are not really that close to fullscreen, they are 184x144 pixels while the screen resolution used is 256x240. Because the display is tile mapped it's possible to change to a different map that actually only flips part of the screen. PC-Engine doesn't actually have a map base register, but you can accomplish the same effect in this demo by changing the scroll registers.

So the memory contents should be as follows:

4x184x144x4bpp framebuffers = 4 * 184 * 144 / 2 = 52992 bytes
96x32x4bpp logo = 96 * 32 / 2 = 1536 bytes
4x32x28 tile maps = 4 * 32 * 28 * 2 = 7168 bytes
1x8x8 black tile = 8 * 8 / 2 = 32 bytes

Total is 52992 + 7168 + 1536 + 32 = 62028 bytes. So it's pretty tight but it'll fit (and it was probably sized to make it as large as they could). Maybe they padded things like the tile map a differently, I didn't check too closely.

 

[Cyan]

Since this thread is supposed to be about cool demos and homebrew, here's another mega drive tech demo by the same guy as the wolf3d port.

On a completely unrelated note, I found this interesting pc-engine demo a while back.

Maybe someone has an idea how it's done?

argh, this is so saddening, I want to watch those videos but I am on a mobile connection with my PC, and no data... Megadrive was the console that my best childhood friend prior to his PSX. Sega had the better names for a console, only equaled by the TurboGrafx name and Neo Geo was also very cool, but Sega had the best overall, imho.

Master System, Megadrive, Saturn, Dreamcast.. Their marketing department would be my best friends, as I don't like generic names and hoped for the Xbox One to be named Talisman, for instance...well...

 

[bunge]

Would the Sega Neptune be under 100W? I assume so. How about a CD enabled Neptune? I always hoped they're release one like how Nintendo just announced the NES rerelease.

 

[Rikimaru]

Would the Sega Neptune be under 100W? I assume so. How about a CD enabled Neptune? I always hoped they're release one like how Nintendo just announced the NES rerelease.

Any console before seventh generation + Wii and Wii U.

 

[Akumajou]

What the hell is going on? ?!! I left Beyond3d months ago to focus on organizing my old consoles and now I come back and there's a big post about old consoles? ?

Have you guys gone retro or something?

Hahaha

 

[Akumajou]

That's very cool.



Can't agree I'm afraid. Very, very little flexibility. Perhaps not awful for 1983 (though I can't bring myself to call it great ), but when Nintendo were still selling it as their flagship console in 1990? Incredibad. I think the SNES's quality and flexibility might have been in part a reaction to how bad the NES sounded compared to its contemporaries.

The problem is that Nintendo ES console had built up a huge library with experienced devs casting some highly memorable games and soundtracks even despite the contemporary new challengers of the late 80s early 90s before the SNES and the Ken Kutaragi Sama Sony Sound chip.

That's why many believe the NES sound was great...the contemporary new challenger consoles were in their early days and it wasn't until Street Fighter II was released at a then massive 16 Megabits cartridge (Mb) which allowed for heavy use of voice samples and thanks to millions sold, eventually allowed other games to use large cartridge sizes to see the limitations or near limitations of said contemporaries.

 

[function]

NES's sound wasn't terrible compared to its early '80s contemporaries. Only compared to the SID of C64 fame and later 80s designs did it start to lose out. Having fixed channels for different waveforms was the standard in early sound synths; C64 was unique for its time in having selectable waveforms for all its channels.

Also, NES did have hardware PCM sample support... While SID could also output samples, it was done very hackishly using CPU PIO and didn't work properly on certain hardware revisions of the chip.

Even if you think NES sound is terrible you have to admit it is very distinct and easily recognized. Just like the muddy colors and wavy artefacting of NES graphics makes it immediately recognizable...

Oh yeah, NES sound (and graphics) is (are) certainly memorable and evocative. I'm a big fan of Master System music. It was only a bit more flexible than the NES on balance, and lacked a sample channel (though there were hacks), but the "chuff cheh chuff chuff" noise channel and warble effects are memorable and I still love listening to good MS tracks in the car. Phantasy Star soundtrack still takes me back to the lands of my youth! Have to drive with the windows up though ....

Yeah, I'm just a huge fan of that old school console sound. Actually I tried to edit my post to say the NES is great with the vrc6, and just good by itself.

If you're not aware of Konami's vrc6 sound chip, it added 2 additional pulse/square wave channels(with better duty cycle control), and a sawtooth channel. The low channel count was really the main weakness of these early systems, so it was exactly what the system needed for more complex compositions.

The best music on the system was arguably VRC6 stuff.

You see, now while I don't like most NES music, that's really cool. I've been listening to it for about the last 20 minutes, and it's going into my bookmarks list as stuff to listen to while I'm working on the PC!

Fast-forward to the mid-80s and onwards, and you have various Yamaha FM-synth chips with sometimes quite a few (simple) channels that could gang up for more complex sounds. ...Although I never found the tonality and melody of these chips to be nearly as interesting as the raw pulsing of a NES.

FM till I die! Though I have to say that "raw" and "pulse" would be a good way to describe NES PCM!

Depends on who you ask I guess. Both are pretty limited. That's what those expansion chips are for.

I think the yamaha chips are a pretty clear improvement over the vanilla nes. But that's probably because I don't mind the slight harshness of fm sound. The much wider array of sounds is worth it imo.

For the NES, I'd definitely agree given what I've just been listening to! But for the Master System while FM normally wins out, I think it occasionally favours the old PCM. Here's a decent little comparision:

My favourite MS soundtrack was Phantasy Star though. Here I think the original chuff cheh chuff is stronger and more atmospheric, and just about wins out. But perhaps that's just my love of the MS version, and having spent 100+ hours with it ...

What the hell is going on? ?!! I left Beyond3d months ago to focus on organizing my old consoles and now I come back and there's a big post about old consoles? ?

Have you guys gone retro or something?

Hahaha

Sometimes you need the past to show you the future! ... or something?

 

[function]

The best music on the system was arguably VRC6 stuff.

Listening to that really got me reminiscing, and I went looking for the similarly vibed Castlevania on the MD. By late MD era it wasn't just Yuzo Koshiro and Sega that could really knock out high quality tunes on the MD. The whole Castlevania soundtrack on MD is amazing.

Megadrive soundchip was amazing. Greater potential to sound awful compared to the SNES, but in the right hands could belt out stuff that no contemporary could. Just for fun, here's a video of someone playing SNES soundtracks as they would have sounded on the YM2612. It was a beast. My favourite point starts at ~2:34 with the YM2612 version of a final Fantasy track.

 

[dogen]

Oh yeah, NES sound (and graphics) is (are) certainly memorable and evocative. I'm a big fan of Master System music. It was only a bit more flexible than the NES on balance

Well, the master system only had 3 square waves and 1 noise(and you had to give up one of the squares for any real control of it), so I'd say it's actually a bit less flexible than the NES.

Now, if you're talking about the FM chip, then that's fair, but you can't forget the NES also had one too, the VRC7, which was almost exactly the same.

It was only used in one game though, and it only has a couple of memorable songs. It's not very popular with fan remixes because it doesn't give you much control. Only 1 instrument at a time can be user defined.

Still sounds pretty good though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drwX7MbB_IE

You see, now while I don't like most NES music, that's really cool. I've been listening to it for about the last 20 minutes, and it's going into my bookmarks list as stuff to listen to while I'm working on the PC!

I told you it was good lol.
That's the best example of the VRC6 in a game imo. Konami only used it a few times, but it's REALLY popular with famitracker users.

The whole compilation is here, but this is my favorite.

Here's a really cool Super Mario World cover.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bnkqjB3qMI

There's also the Namco 163, a 6 channel wavetable chip, and also popular with fans.

Shinobi III

Also, Battle Garrega on the NES!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf9aESy0mys

Listening to that really got me reminiscing, and I went looking for the similarly vibed Castlevania on the MD. By late MD era it wasn't just Yuzo Koshiro and Sega that could really knock out high quality tunes on the MD. The whole Castlevania soundtrack on MD is amazing.

Megadrive soundchip was amazing. Greater potential to sound awful compared to the SNES, but in the right hands could belt out stuff that no contemporary could. Just for fun, here's a video of someone playing SNES soundtracks as they would have sounded on the YM2612. It was a beast. My favourite point starts at ~2:34 with the YM2612 version of a final Fantasy track.

Yep, Bloodlines has amazingly good music. It was so good they let Yamane compose the rest of the series. I really like stage 1, 2, and 5.

And that second video is cool, but I think it just uses sounds ripped from genesis games. Who knows what they could sound like if someone rewrote them to work on the real thing.


Sorry about the huge wall of text and videos. I'm kinda obsessed with this stuff.

 

[milk]

Dont be sorry. These threads are made exactly for that purpose. We always learn something new. With your post in particular, i learned a bunch.

 

[Grall]

The NES floppy drive also had a sound chip with, IIRC, two or three additional FM voices, which probably were more flexible than the standard ones in the NES itself. The Legend of Zelda's music in the original Japanese floppy version sounded quite different because of this.

Personally I find the cart version actually preferable; it's so simple and pure, while the floppy version's extra voices create clutter... Maybe it's just because I grew up with the cart version's music, and if the floppy drive had ever made it over to the west perhaps I would have liked it more. *shrug*

 

[dogen]

The NES floppy drive also had a sound chip with, IIRC, two or three additional FM voices, which probably were more flexible than the standard ones in the NES itself. The Legend of Zelda's music in the original Japanese floppy version sounded quite different because of this.

Personally I find the cart version actually preferable; it's so simple and pure, while the floppy version's extra voices create clutter... Maybe it's just because I grew up with the cart version's music, and if the floppy drive had ever made it over to the west perhaps I would have liked it more. *shrug*

Yeah, it had a single wavetable channel, but it was still a good addition. Actually, I'm not sure I've heard any real games that used it..

...
Ok, yeah. The cartridge version of zelda is better...

 

[Akumajou]

The thing about NES sound chip is that even way back in the day I would hear stories from other gamers talking about how cool the music was...on Megaman games.

I had a lot of great experiences playing on a Sega Master System back then as well at a relative's.

The games were Astro Warrior and a few other early titles.

As always the soundtracks depends on the games the devs and their inspiration or experience efforts...

It was recently I discovered that Sega Master System had the FM chip games which as a chip it stayed in Japan...one of those things that makes me wonder if the Master System would have had it and a more serious effort directly by Sega and how it may have been a little different...

Although Redbook audio is great too it also depends on the games and sometimes sometimes devs choices as some songs are very memorable and the last couple gens it's mostly forgettable.

I felt the PlayStation and Saturn had some amazing Redbook audio soundtracks with Saturn being an untapped potential in sound which was starting to get unlocked in 1996 depending the game.

It has been sad how we get obsessed with 3d graphics that we forget how these consoles (starting with Saturn) were 2d power houses that sadly were kinda ignored outside Japan and hardcore gamer circles with most mainstream media print magazines only praising the 3d games on coverage.

Despite the N64's supposed weaker 2d capabilities which is hogwash...the console rom cartridges and CD-ROM enabled higher ram sizes and then it was like most of the money went into 3d and CD-audio music.

 

[dogen]

I felt the PlayStation and Saturn had some amazing Redbook audio soundtracks with Saturn being an untapped potential in sound which was starting to get unlocked in 1996 depending the game.

Yeah, maybe. The saturn had kind of a beast of a sound chip. Pretty untapped I guess, but I think people just figured why bother with fm now that we can do pcm and redbook no problem?

Anyway, scorcher had some great music by jesper kyd.

Alien Trilogy was also crazy good.

It has been sad how we get obsessed with 3d graphics that we forget how these consoles (starting with Saturn) were 2d power houses that sadly were kinda ignored outside Japan and hardcore gamer circles with most mainstream media print magazines only praising the 3d games on coverage.

Yeah, high quality 2D > crap-mediocre 3D.
I would've loved to see what they could've come up with if they focused on 2D for that gen.

We could've had a generation of 2D games that looked like metal slug and symphony of the night, or better.

 

[Grall]

The saturn had kind of a beast of a sound chip.

Sound chips, really. You had the wavetable/FM synth, accompanying DSP, and the 68k CPU orchestrating it all. (The synth and DSP may have been on the same silicon die tho.)

Unfortunately it lacked hardware sample compression, which meant the PSX ended up with more effective sound RAM available to it. N64 suffered the same issue, although I don't know if anyone hacked together decompression on the RSP... It would have consumed loads of processing power tho so perhaps not...

If you were to use a Saturn as a synth tho, you could just as well dedicate main/all RAM to storing compressed samples, decompress on the SH2 CPUs in realtime and then dynamically swap data in and out of sound RAM. Complicated, sure. And why bother today...? Still, interesting idea, I thought.