Feasibility of an upgradeable or forwards compatible console *spawn*

[iroboto]

If this is the case (which seems like a solid foundation)... but, haven't we had developers here, even argue against this? Arguing that optimizations (sync_timing_debugging_etc...) will still be required no matter the platform revision the game code lands on. In essence driving up development hours, cost, even delays.

Mind you, I'm not totally against this. I'm just wondering what happen to the mindset (thoughts / opinions) that such a thing would be terrible for the console industry - versus now?!

So this is just a thought; the thought being lets assume we are going to do upgrade able console: how would you do it?

Firstly, the GPU could be external, a dedicated one. So a beefy external gpu coupled with the internal one, with the use case of explicit multi adaptor you can probably net decent gains.

To ensure that this takes off, this upgrade concept, I would simultaneously release Xbox 2, which would basically be the Xbox one with the same dgpu in the same case.

So it works out to be ahh the same, but users can upgrade to the next iteration and those that don't own an existing Xbox can get the newer one.

You've effectively shortened the cycle while lengthening it.

The amount of software knowledge we have today and how we build games today is likely how or why this would be possible. Back then with 32X I don't think it was nearly as easy as it is now.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I don't think a GPU-only upgrade works unless each console only receives one update before being replaced. For example, 2018 Xbox Two, 2021 Xbox Two Upgrade, 2024 Xbox Three, 2027 Xbox Four.

You pretty much need to keep increasing RAM and CPU alongside the GPU, so I'd expect the upgrade module to contain all of those parts.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Watching some videos, and reading transcripts, I'm not totally sure Phil Spencer ever referred to an upgradeable console. Not saying it isn't an option, but it sounds more along the lines of Xbox One, Xbox One S, Xbox Two, Xbox Two S ... a major/minor release cycle like you get with mobile devices. That way they can bring in new hardware features rapidly to keep up with displays, VR or whatever without having to wait 6-8 years for a release. Forwards compatibility would basically enable this.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Not saying it isn't an option, but it sounds more along the lines of Xbox One, Xbox One S, Xbox Two, Xbox Two S ... a major/minor release cycle like you get with mobile devices.

It's also something that already happened with other consoles:
DS -> DSi
3DS -> New 3DS

Both cases took a very significant upgrade in CPU power.
The 3DS went from a dual-core ARM11 @ 268MHz to a quad-core ARM11 that can clock up to 804MHz (3*268), effectively giving it 6x the original's CPU performance. Also, the FCRAM was doubled and offers twice the bandwidth. They pretty much made a new SoC but kept the GPU.

 

[iroboto]

I don't think a GPU-only upgrade works unless each console only receives one update before being replaced. For example, 2018 Xbox Two, 2021 Xbox Two Upgrade, 2024 Xbox Three, 2027 Xbox Four.

You pretty much need to keep increasing RAM and CPU alongside the GPU, so I'd expect the upgrade module to contain all of those parts.

This is the case I think for even a PC. Hard to push a CPU post 6 years. Software will eventually catch up and move beyond.

 

[east of eastside]

So, what potential is there for a 4K Xbox One + for 2017 before Xbox Two?

 

[iroboto]

So, what potential is there for a 4K Xbox One + for 2017 before Xbox Two?

Certainly greater than 0 now. But with the lack of information available I'd say extremely unlikely. He may just be referring to other future plans. 4K seems too large of a stretch as well.

Let's assume that there is an external module to connect to, is there really enough bandwidth available through the Kinect port? Or USB3 port?? I'm not sure. though with their experience with surface book, they have more experience down this route of lock in explicit GPU setups. I'm sure there are some learnings there, I've no clue if it's feasible.

Certainly fun to entertain the thought. A month ago everyone complained about Xbox exclusives going to PC and there would be no reason to get an Xbox. But this upgrade idea makes that argument really muddled. If it's only a marginal price more to get an external adaptor and iterate faster with mouse and keyboard support as well as UWApplications, would you be now willing to buy a mid range PC to play?? Only super high end PCs would be magnitudes more powerful, but magnitudes more expensive when you have to recycle the entire PC.

Right now I've locked myself into gsync, so waiting for pascal. But my total investment to upgrade my PC is looking north of $2500 when you include the cost of a gsync monitor.

Things like this is fairly huge if you just want to game well but still be on a budget.

 

[Globalisateur]

Everybody talking like if Xbox one will have hardware upgrades. But where the exact quote about that? I only found very general stuff about future consoles, maybe XB2, that could do that, nothing specific about the XB1. Because obviously they can't upgrade the XB1.

When you look at the console space, I believe we will see more hardware innovation in the console space than we've ever seen. You'll actually see us come out with new hardware capability during a generation allowing the same games to run backward and forward compatible because we have a Universal Windows Application running on top of the Universal Windows Platform that allows us to focus more and more on hardware innovation without invalidating the games that run on that platform.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Everybody talking like if Xbox one will have hardware upgrades. But where the exact quote about that? I only found very general stuff about future consoles, maybe XB2, that could do that, nothing specific about the XB1. Because obviously they can't upgrade the XB1.

When you speak in that vague non-specific way like a fortune teller or medium, the listener can infer anything they want and yet Microsoft have promised nothing. It's absolute genius. Phil Spencer is a genius. Or he used to a fortune teller. Or maybe both.

Maybe Xbox Two will go back to using cartridges because design the slot right and it taps right into the RAM and CPU bus and any expansion is possible.

 

[iroboto]

Everybody talking like if Xbox one will have hardware upgrades. But where the exact quote about that? I only found very general stuff about future consoles, maybe XB2, that could do that, nothing specific about the XB1. Because obviously they can't upgrade the XB1.

Agreed, hence, why all this talk should have always been in this thread. It's a discussion of feasibility, we're not discussing yet whether Xbox will be this. I was very deliberate on posting this article here. But it carried over xbox's future thread which imo, if I recall correctly, we spun this thread off there because until it's actually something tangible, this is a fluff discussion about feasibility.

 

[trainplane]

Upgradable console and cross-compatibility are two different things and sometimes the discussion gets mixed up.

But to add to my previous post, I see some other issues.

For XB1 ESRAM: If they use GDDR5X or HBM, how will games handle this?
Both PS4 and XB1 use AMD x86. They seem to always be on the brink of bankruptcy and could lose their x86 license.

On the other hand, it would be exciting to see a Zen+HBM2+Polaris GPU before too long.

The other thing I could see is that the next consoles will support multiple Thunderbolt 3 ports which should suffice for any potential external GPU.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/amd-wants-to-standardise-the-external-gpu/

 

[Scott_Arm]

Everybody talking like if Xbox one will have hardware upgrades. But where the exact quote about that? I only found very general stuff about future consoles, maybe XB2, that could do that, nothing specific about the XB1. Because obviously they can't upgrade the XB1.

The stories that were written by Polygon and some other sites all said he hinted at an "upgradeable console", but if you actually watch any of the interviews with him, that's not really what it sounds like. I don't think they have any concrete plans, or are ready to announce them, which is why the plans seem kind of nebulous at this point.

Because he mentioned that PS4 is adding an external box to help with VR, I kind of wonder if they won't release an Xbox One VR edition, that has an improved GPU to handle VR, and then later release Xbox "Two" with backwards/forwards compatibility between all of them.

 

[AlNom]

Xbox One VR edition, that has an improved GPU to handle VR.

Xbox One Oculus (XBOO/XBONO/XOOOOOOOOOO)
XbOculus

edit:

Actually, I wonder if they could appropriate something akin to Forza 3's multi-monitor setup that required you to connect 3xXbox360s via ethernet switch.

Make a cut-down "VR" add-on that only has the basics needed to render the 2nd eye - no optical drive or outputs except for ethernet, maybe even reduced RAM chips?

 

[function]

Xbox One Oculus (XBOO/XBONO/XOOOOOOOOOO)
XbOculus

edit:

Actually, I wonder if they could appropriate something akin to Forza 3's multi-monitor setup that required you to connect 3xXbox360s via ethernet switch.

Make a cut-down "VR" add-on that only has the basics needed to render the 2nd eye - no optical drive or outputs except for ethernet, maybe even reduced RAM chips?

Xboxen aren't stackable, and can't stand vertically, so you'd need to sell a custom XbOculus Cabinet (with additional side shelves for PSUs). To make it look classy and like a high end AV cabinet, you'd also need to make the XbOculus Cabinet far bigger that it actually needed to be.

 

[eastmen]

Upgradable console and cross-compatibility are two different things and sometimes the discussion gets mixed up.

But to add to my previous post, I see some other issues.

For XB1 ESRAM: If they use GDDR5X or HBM, how will games handle this?
Both PS4 and XB1 use AMD x86. They seem to always be on the brink of bankruptcy and could lose their x86 license.

On the other hand, it would be exciting to see a Zen+HBM2+Polaris GPU before too long.

The other thing I could see is that the next consoles will support multiple Thunderbolt 3 ports which should suffice for any potential external GPU.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/amd-wants-to-standardise-the-external-gpu/

I don't think your going to upgrade your console in a pc sense but in an iPhone sense.

So 2013 - xbox one 8 core jaguar + ddr 3 ram + gcn1.1

2017 Zen +HBM2 + Polaris

2020 Zen 2 + HBM2's replacement + GCN 4 ?


You could even have an external pci-e port in future models

So perhaps 2017 Zen + Polaris + HBM2 with an optional external 2gpu. The 2nd gpu can be used as a 4k edition or bundled with the vr option ?

 

[function]

If this is the case (which seems like a solid foundation)... but, haven't we had developers here, even argue against this? Arguing that optimizations (sync_timing_debugging_etc...) will still be required no matter the platform revision the game code lands on. In essence driving up development hours, cost, even delays.

Well it wouldn't be a painless exercise, but by focusing optimisation on the base platform, making the uprated system faster at everything, and using common APIs, deployment methods, and analysis tools you could probably streamline a lot of things.

And if you went "full abstraction" like you get in the app world, you could potentially ignore anything other than banging up the resolution. Maybe. (Although that'd cost some of the ability to optimise).

Mind you, I'm not totally against this. I'm just wondering what happen to the mindset (thoughts / opinions) that such a thing would be terrible for the console industry - versus now?!

I think this would still be terrible if BC wasn't guaranteed, and if there wasn't some degree of forwards compatibility. But MS have impressed me enough with their handling of X360 BC, with their separation of Game OS and Dash OS, and with their plans for universal apps that I think for the first time someone might have a good chance at pulling this off...

 

[AlNom]

Xboxen aren't stackable, and can't stand vertically, so you'd need to sell a custom XbOculus Cabinet (with additional side shelves for PSUs). To make it look classy and like a high end AV cabinet, you'd also need to make the XbOculus Cabinet far bigger that it actually needed to be.

Well, I was somewhat thinking that it'd already be fairly niche to begin with, so perhaps they could roll out 14/16nm APU first with this (low volume), so it'd potentially be smaller, especially if they needn't include the full 8GB worth of chips and other extraneous items.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Xbox One Oculus (XBOO/XBONO/XOOOOOOOOOO)
XbOculus

edit:

Actually, I wonder if they could appropriate something akin to Forza 3's multi-monitor setup that required you to connect 3xXbox360s via ethernet switch.

Make a cut-down "VR" add-on that only has the basics needed to render the 2nd eye - no optical drive or outputs except for ethernet, maybe even reduced RAM chips?

Stacking consoles would be awful. If I were to hedge my bets, I'd guess an Xbox One VR edition that supports either Oculus or VR headsets in general. Same CPU, same memory, just a fattened GPU to support the rendering requirements. Not sure if Xbox One's memory layout is suitable. Perhaps they'd change from ESRAM to HBM? They could just assign 32MB of RAM to act as ESRAM for compatibility's sake. Could run non-VR games at higher "settings."

 

[AlNom]

Stacking consoles would be awful. If I were to hedge my bets, I'd guess an Xbox One VR edition that supports either Oculus or VR headsets in general.

Well, just going along with the "upgradeable aspect."

PSVR still needs an add-on box.

Same CPU, same memory, just a fattened GPU to support the rendering requirements.

You still need to feed the GPU.

Also, isn't this idea you're describing essentially a PS4 except that the tens of millions of PS4 owners could just buy an add-on, whereas current Xbox One owners are SOL, and would have to rebuy the more powerful Xbox plus the VR hardware.

Certainly, it'd be a level playing field for the many people who don't even own an Xbox One to begin with, but uh... /troll

 

[Scott_Arm]

Well, just going along with the "upgradeable aspect."

PSVR still needs an add-on box.




You still need to feed the GPU.

Well, I mean. Isn't this idea you're describing essentially a PS4 except that the tens of millions of PS4 owners just buy an add-on, whereas current Xbox One owners are SOL, and would have to rebuy the more powerful Xbox plus the VR headsets.

Yah, but you can only shift so much rendering to an external box, right? Unless you're talking about eGPU, but Xbox One only has USB 3.0 to work with. Linking two consoles together seems like a really expensive and inefficient way to do it. Edit: Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. You're talking about making a network module that assists with rendering the way the multi-console forza setup worked. Not actually buying two Xbox One's and having them share rendering.

I suppose the CPU would probably starve a bigger GPU. They could probably upgrade everything to a new APU. If they were selling a new model, they may as well.