Nintendo announce: Nintendo NX

[Syferz]

Don't think their HBM APUs are due till Zen, some time in 2017.

Zen will get a paper launch in the dying days of this year, availability is now set to be Q1 2017. Knowing AMD that probably means April 2nd.

http://wccftech.com/amd-confirms-zen-debut-q4-2016-apus-2017/

Yeah you seem to be right about APUs being next year. There was an article on Fudzilla that said Zen will replace Carrizo APUs this year, but the link above has an AMD rep stating 18 months from now for the APUs.
http://www.fudzilla.com/news/39579-carrizo-apu-will-go-zen-this-year

Zen has nothing to do with Nintendo NX I imagine though, HBM is already being used since september for AMD and consoles are much more custom parts than PCs even if PS4 is mainly off the shelf.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Zen will get a paper launch in the dying days of this year, availability is now set to be Q1 2017. Knowing AMD that probably means April 2nd.

All reports so far point to non-APU Zen (FX moniker) being in the shelves this year for socket AM4. At the same time and for the same socket, AMD will release Bristol Ridge which seems to be a frequency-optimized Carrizo for desktops with DDR4 support.
Zen's paperlaunch will probably occur during Computex or shortly after. If they missed Zen for 2016 then the company probably wouldn't last until April anyways.

 

[function]

All reports so far point to non-APU Zen (FX moniker) being in the shelves this year for socket AM4. At the same time and for the same socket, AMD will release Bristol Ridge which seems to be a frequency-optimized Carrizo for desktops with DDR4 support.
Zen's paperlaunch will probably occur during Computex or shortly after. If they missed Zen for 2016 then the company probably wouldn't last until April anyways.

Always risky trying to read between the lines, but when AMD are talking about initial availability in Q4, but with quantities increasing significantly in 2017, I think that means fighting to get first wave out in December with very limited numbers, and what we think of as general retail availability in Q1 if they can pull it off.

AMD have form for this. They need to keep people interested, which means putting a positive spin on availability all the time.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

I met up with a guy I know that works for Nintendo the other day and I slipped in some questions about NX. He has seen some prototypes and said it is a interesting device. I tried asking him whether NX would be one platform and he said yes but when I asked if that means it would be a handheld that you plug into a home station or something like that he didn't gave much of an answer though he is not in R&D or development and might not know.

It also looks like Nintendo is working on a new game in a franchise that has been missing since Wii and is heavily requested by western fans. Apparently Nintendo listened to the community and decided to make a new game. The reason Nintendo hasn't done so much with this franchise is because its not that popular in Japan and Nintendo being a Japanese company, if Japan doesn't ask for it they think the rest of the world doesn't care either. Won't mention the title as there hasn't been anything officially announced.

Some other little tidbits that might be fun to know is that Nintendo employees get 20% off on hardware but they don't really have to buy any games as they can just borrow them from the office library.

 

[Pixel]

I met up with a guy I know that works for Nintendo the other day and I slipped in some questions about NX. He has seen some prototypes and said it is a interesting device. I tried asking him whether NX would be one platform and he said yes but when I asked if that means it would be a handheld that you plug into a home station or something like that he didn't gave much of an answer though he is not in R&D or development and might not know.

It also looks like Nintendo is working on a new game in a franchise that has been missing since Wii and is heavily requested by western fans. Apparently Nintendo listened to the community and decided to make a new game. The reason Nintendo hasn't done so much with this franchise is because its not that popular in Japan and Nintendo being a Japanese company, if Japan doesn't ask for it they think the rest of the world doesn't care either. Won't mention the title as there hasn't been anything officially announced.

Some other little tidbits that might be fun to know is that Nintendo employees get 20% off on hardware but they don't really have to buy any games as they can just borrow them from the office library.

Retro Studios - February 21, 2014 release of last title. For nearly 2 years Retro Studios have been working on a still unannounced title. The development time for this title is taking longer than the Donkey Kong games, so its likely bigger.

http://gamerant.com/metroid-prime-nx-release-645/

Franchise missing since Wii - check
heavily requested by western fans - check
Not popular in Japan - check
No official announcement - check
Retro Studios working on an unannounce title - check
Nintendo has stated that it wants more 3d Metroid games to be made - check
Miyamoto stating he wants Retro to create more Metroid games - check

June 2015 Retro Studios producer Kensuke Tanabe "If we started for Wii U now, it would likely take three years or so,” said Tanabe. “It would likely now be on Nintendo’s NX console.” Explaining that such a game would take a “lot of work” on the development side, Tanabe also revealed that a lack of current Metroid Prime game for Wii U is down to an inability to “collect a team or the resources to do it.”
“Personally I’d like to create a story centring around Sylux and Samus,” said Tanabe.

http://www.realtytoday.com/articles/55164/20151124/new-metroid-game-launched-nintendo-nx.htm

 

[Syferz]

I was chatting with a friend on IRC about the NX handheld and console, he realized they would probably use the same chip and just disable components. Considering disabling too much of a chip reduces the effectiveness of this approach, and expecting a reasonable boost to the console, putting it around XB1 level. I think Nintendo could be looking at GCN2 with 8CUs @ 1GHz for 1TFLOP with the gains from the new architecture hitting pretty close to XB1. The handheld would have this chip with half the CUs disabled at a lower clock ~500mhz, for 256Gflops. The understanding right now is that the handheld is 540p while the console would target 1080p at least for Nintendo's games, combined with a small handheld screen (~4 - 5 inches) would put it reasonably close to current gen and allow a simple platform for developers to target both devices with. Recently there was a rumor that the NX is around XB1 performance, so I think this fits with what Nintendo is trying to do.

I also want to point out that the CPU would be very much the same, we might see a 6 core A72 with 2 A53 cores on the console with the handheld having 2 disabled A72 cores and a lower clock to meet the power requirements. This IMO would also make a single platform with multiple form-factors much easier and expanding on this design is as simple as adding or disabling cores / components.

 

[Goodtwin]

I was chatting with a friend on IRC about the NX handheld and console, he realized they would probably use the same chip and just disable components. Considering disabling too much of a chip reduces the effectiveness of this approach, and expecting a reasonable boost to the console, putting it around XB1 level. I think Nintendo could be looking at GCN2 with 8CUs @ 1GHz for 1TFLOP with the gains from the new architecture hitting pretty close to XB1. The handheld would have this chip with half the CUs disabled at a lower clock ~500mhz, for 256Gflops. The understanding right now is that the handheld is 540p while the console would target 1080p at least for Nintendo's games, combined with a small handheld screen (~4 - 5 inches) would put it reasonably close to current gen and allow a simple platform for developers to target both devices with. Recently there was a rumor that the NX is around XB1 performance, so I think this fits with what Nintendo is trying to do.

I also want to point out that the CPU would be very much the same, we might see a 6 core A72 with 2 A53 cores on the console with the handheld having 2 disabled A72 cores and a lower clock to meet the power requirements. This IMO would also make a single platform with multiple form-factors much easier and expanding on this design is as simple as adding or disabling cores / components.

It does seem like clock speed is likely going to be a key difference between the handheld and console version. Just like the Nvidia Shield allowed the Tegra chip to really showcase what it can do without the power consumption and heat restrictions, Im sure the chipset in NX will scale in a similar fashion. The 540p screen for the handheld seems reasonable, freeing up tons of resources compared to rendering in 1080p. CPU I feel like it needs to be the same for both, and that's why ARM's very low power consumption is so important. Rendering requirements scale predictably with resolution, but CPU loads can be the same regardless if its 540p or 1080p. I like the idea of quad core. Wouldn't the smaller node allow them to run a higher clock speed on the CPU than the Jaguar runs? Assuming this is the case, a 2.5 Ghz ARM chip with higher IPC should outperform each Jaguar core considerably, and even with less cores, should give developers the resources what they need.

 

[Metaldave]

I was chatting with a friend on IRC about the NX handheld and console, he realized they would probably use the same chip and just disable components. Considering disabling too much of a chip reduces the effectiveness of this approach, and expecting a reasonable boost to the console, putting it around XB1 level. I think Nintendo could be looking at GCN2 with 8CUs @ 1GHz for 1TFLOP with the gains from the new architecture hitting pretty close to XB1. The handheld would have this chip with half the CUs disabled at a lower clock ~500mhz, for 256Gflops. The understanding right now is that the handheld is 540p while the console would target 1080p at least for Nintendo's games, combined with a small handheld screen (~4 - 5 inches) would put it reasonably close to current gen and allow a simple platform for developers to target both devices with. Recently there was a rumor that the NX is around XB1 performance, so I think this fits with what Nintendo is trying to do.

I also want to point out that the CPU would be very much the same, we might see a 6 core A72 with 2 A53 cores on the console with the handheld having 2 disabled A72 cores and a lower clock to meet the power requirements. This IMO would also make a single platform with multiple form-factors much easier and expanding on this design is as simple as adding or disabling cores / components.

Is there any truth to this or just speculation based on assumptions?

 

[Syferz]

Is there any truth to this or just speculation based on assumptions?

Just speculation, but it is reasonable to assume Imo.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Seems like a waste of money to have the same chip and disable so much of it just for a portable device.

 

[function]

It looks like AMD are going to be splitting their work between TSMC and GF when 14nm hits. TSMC for the high density, high performance stuff like high end GPUs, and GF for their Samsung based, power optimised GPUs and APUs and perhaps mobile GPUs.

Trying to span high end to handheld from one chip might not work. Then again, I don't think Nintendo will try "high end" (nor will they need to for visuals competitive with PS4Bone).

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Seems like a waste of money to have the same chip and disable so much of it just for a portable device.

Well it's what nVidia did for the GM204 in the 970M and 965M.
The oddest thing is that the 965M has 50% of the GM204's resources disabled so it ends up with the exact same SMM units, TMUs, ROPs and memory channels as a GM206.
Some websites claim nVidia eventually changed the 965M to a GM206, but I haven't seen any proof of it yet.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Could this just be a case of failed high end parts being re-purposed? A portion of low/mid-range silicon is high end silicon that's failed one or more qualifications.

 

[dobwal]

Given that Nintendo's handhelds are far more popular than its consoles, disabling high end silicon to support handhelds will ultimately result in a ton of money spent on unused transistors.

 

[Goodtwin]

It looks like AMD are going to be splitting their work between TSMC and GF when 14nm hits. TSMC for the high density, high performance stuff like high end GPUs, and GF for their Samsung based, power optimised GPUs and APUs and perhaps mobile GPUs.

Trying to span high end to handheld from one chip might not work. Then again, I don't think Nintendo will try "high end" (nor will they need to for visuals competitive with PS4Bone).

Assuming Nintendo is indeed consolidating its development environment into a single ecosystem, the NX platform could see frequent hardware upgrades over time. This would in a sense avoid the hard restart that they have to endure previous hardware changes. Similar to upgrading your phone or tablet, your previous apps and games would transfer over. So while I don't doubt Nintendo's hardware will never be high end, if their business model introduces new higher performing models every few years, it could take off. Essentially creating a consumer install base that constantly looks forward to the latest NX model, instead of seeing new hardware purchases as a necessary evil. From Nintendo's own admission, they believe the Wii U launch price was too high, so I see them targeting a $199-249 price with NX. With that price, high end hardware is pretty much out of the question. High end mobile hardware on the other hand is very possible. Im thinking more Nvidia Shield than PS4. Not saying performance wont be good, but the hardware will have its roots deep in mobile.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Given that Nintendo's handhelds are far more popular than its consoles, disabling high end silicon to support handhelds will ultimately result in a ton of money spent on unused transistors.

Yes, yields would have to be terrible for qualification failures alone to meet their probable handheld needs.

 

[Syferz]

GCN CUs on 28nm are about 8mm^2 a piece, the move to 14nm should have them below 3mm^2, the Wii U's gpu is 146mm^2, so disabling 11mm^2 of the apu probably isn't a big deal, especially when you don't know how many of which chip you'll need, this allows them to make a single APU which should save them time and development, testing and 2 separate production lines for the chip.

Producing this as a single APU makes sense considering the majority of the chip will be CPU cores anyways, 4 A72 cores and say 4 A53 cores, with the A53 cores clocked the same between the devices allows them to have a smooth os on either platform, while having separate speeds for the main cores between the devices, which is similar to how n3ds and 3ds work right now.

Also Samsung is going to fab for AMD, at least until global foundries gets 14nm products up and running. (there was news about it just the other day)

 

[TheLump]

Assuming Nintendo is indeed consolidating its development environment into a single ecosystem, the NX platform could see frequent hardware upgrades over time. This would in a sense avoid the hard restart that they have to endure previous hardware changes. Similar to upgrading your phone or tablet, your previous apps and games would transfer over. So while I don't doubt Nintendo's hardware will never be high end, if their business model introduces new higher performing models every few years, it could take off. Essentially creating a consumer install base that constantly looks forward to the latest NX model, instead of seeing new hardware purchases as a necessary evil. From Nintendo's own admission, they believe the Wii U launch price was too high, so I see them targeting a $199-249 price with NX. With that price, high end hardware is pretty much out of the question. High end mobile hardware on the other hand is very possible. Im thinking more Nvidia Shield than PS4. Not saying performance wont be good, but the hardware will have its roots deep in mobile.

This seems, from Iwata and now Kimishima's recent comments, to be exactly what they want to achieve. Whether they can pull it off remains to be seen but on paper it certainly seems like the logical step for the industry.

 

[Sonic]

I wonder how many devices they're developing. Has this patent application already been posted?

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...tendo.AANM.&OS=AANM/nintendo&RS=AANM/nintendo

It's a supplemental gaming device that seems to be assist the console, but doesn't seem to be a mobile device either.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

This seems, from Iwata and now Kimishima's recent comments, to be exactly what they want to achieve. Whether they can pull it off remains to be seen but on paper it certainly seems like the logical step for the industry.

Have you a quote? It'd be very interesting if we some semi-official word on wanting an 'upgradable/forwards compatible console' as per one of our threads on the matter.