*spin-off* Importance of Backward Compatibility Discussion
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What makes you know that? Do you know all PS3 owners to say that none of them bought a console costing 50% more than its competitor that launched 1.5 years earlier because it precisely offered backwards-compatibility? Not to mention it's a bit of a hard situation to determine, the PS3 only launched with BC in a very narrow time frame. But I'd argue BC certainly aided in the transition and justified some of its price, which wasn't because of BC, but because of blue laser diodes, the Bluray drive and a harddrive.
I'd also argue that BC is becoming more and more important as digital purchases become more relevant to console buyers in the future...
FarticusMaximus
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Quite the opposite.
MS' method of emulation via VM's means there is no reliance on previous gen hardware in next-gen consoles, and the move to PC-like architecture (assuming no swing back to custom silicon next gen) means even less work to do for BC next gen.
Inexpensive BC should be a given going forward for MS.
Sony should be able to adopt a similar model next gen unless they decide to continue fleecing customers with PSNow. I don't see PSNow surviving long though, at least not in it's current form.
Maintaining a fleet of PS3's as servers has got to become an Albatross at some point. It would have to go virtual, and when it does they have their solution for in-console BC, further reducing the need for a streaming service.
Nintendo I'm not so sure about.
PSNow is not a BC service.
FarticusMaximus
Newcomer
Well aware of that. It's designed to stream to smart TV's and etc, etc, but this gen it's all they have to play the back catalog on.
I was talking about (strict) backward compatibility. You take any game, insert in the box and you can play your game 100% like it played on its original hardware. For cases of one generation of BC (PS2 -> PS3, Wii -> Wii U etc) That's only possible if you include the hardware (somehow) from the previous console in the new.
The XB1 is not backward compatible. I see it more like a Virtual Console + cross-buy on a few selected X360 titles.
But they didn't change the water to giant waves and cover the game in a sepia filter, true remaster stuff.
You are kind of extrapolating from one data point. What if MS has a ESRAM-less console next time? Or are you saying they have no reliance on hardware as long as they design a console that is similar to the last one? Lets see if they can even deliver one gen of BC before you speak for all fictional future ones. So far they have delivers a small list of games to preview members.
Also I would hardly call it inexpensive, MS likely has to sink a lot of resources to get this into a semi-functional state. Its not like they delivered 100% 360 BC on day one right?
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FarticusMaximus
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I'd agree that the days of hardware BC are over, although I still couldn't guarantee Nintendo won't go down that route.
Eh, poh-tay-toh, poh-tah-toh. If I can put an Xbox 360 disc in my Xbox One and play it (admittedly after a one-time download) then I'm gonna go with the majority and call it backward compatibility.
Can you?
Backwards compatibility shouldn't include (re)authorization of a product that you own as well. Pop the disc in and play (that's BC)... not, pop the disc in and pray that the developer will give their blessing on playing something you already own.
That being said, MS/XB1 version of what they consider to be XB360 backwards compatibility is far more welcoming than Sony's gaming streaming services.
That being said, MS/XB1 version of what they consider to be XB360 backwards compatibility is far more welcoming than Sony's gaming streaming services.
I don't think it wrong to make that distinction. In true BC, every game disk/download (bar bugs) you put in runs. With the 360 emulated model at the moment, most games aren't supported. Only when the emulator runs the vast majority of titles can it be considered a proper BC solution. After all, what good is BC if it doesn't work in 8 out of 10 of the old games you own?
The system is clearly able to run the titles though so it is backwards compatible.
I do wish it was an native emulator on the console instead of having to download the entire package of the emu/game. I wonder if there is a way for the system to create a file system to specify games you own/purchase digitally. I'd be fine if it requires the original disc to be inserted ala the physical media titles for the X1 now to work around people cheating the system.
It would be great if you were able to download the specific tweaks it needs locally instead of the whole whole game/emu package to save space. My X1 is starving for space as is and I still haven't gotten around to getting a large external HDD for it, but even if that were so, I have adding extra fat if it isn't necessary.
I do wish it was an native emulator on the console instead of having to download the entire package of the emu/game. I wonder if there is a way for the system to create a file system to specify games you own/purchase digitally. I'd be fine if it requires the original disc to be inserted ala the physical media titles for the X1 now to work around people cheating the system.
It would be great if you were able to download the specific tweaks it needs locally instead of the whole whole game/emu package to save space. My X1 is starving for space as is and I still haven't gotten around to getting a large external HDD for it, but even if that were so, I have adding extra fat if it isn't necessary.
Microsoft's system isn't even released yet. Currently it's still in a private beta. So no wonder most games are not supported. Phil Spencer has already said the preview is mainly to help get the emulation right & not worry about the portfolio, but they will bring in new games into the preview, but it's to only help with the emulation. The original announcement was for releasing it to the public Holiday this year with over a 100 tiles & then hundreds more shortly after that. If we get to the public release & it works like crap then I'm sure most of you will shout it from the highest mountain. I'm almost wishing Microsoft hadn't made it available to Preview users. Great fan service & makes for some good buzz, but after awhile people are just going to use it to take pot shots at them for not doing more.
Tommy McClain
Except I'm not criticising MS. I'm just making the distinction between a partial library support and full BC because the two are clearly different. Let's look at what I actually said...
That takes nothing away from what MS provides or what they may achieve. But it's as wrong to say the emulator as it is at the moment without any assumptions as to how it'll turn out is as comparable a BC solution to full hardware as it is to say emulation will always be limited to a small percentage of titles. We don't know at this point.
D
Deleted member 11852
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In many ways Microsoft's Xbox One 360 b/c solution is as limited as Sony's first revision PS3 b/c solution. The initial Japan and US launch PS3 had full PS2 hardware support by including PS2's GS and EE chips but by the time the PS3 launched in Europe the EE chip was replaced by software emulation but the emulation was not complete and only games that Sony's emulator was specifically written to handle would work without issues.
The final list of games supported in this iterative PS3 hardware revision was a tiny percent of PS2's game catalogue and after Sony dropped all b/c in the next revision PS3 momentum to add support for other PS2 games just dried up.
It'll be interesting to see how long Microsoft persevere with this. I firmly believe Sony had a good idea of how little people played PS2 games on PS3 and dropped their b/c efforts for this reason alone. Microsoft can only collect this information having deployed a solution but if barely used I'd be surprised if they didn't drop it as well unless the re-packaging of 360 games is virtually time/resource free.
And we wouldn't call the half-solution full BC. XB was also emulated on 360 but only for a number of titles before it was abandoned.
I imagine it is a fairly painless process. If the emulator doesn't need per title profiles, it should just be a case of packaging the 360 title in an XB1 friendly package, which is as it's been described.
I'm going to use made up numbers to try to express a point, but I'm more than happy for people to chime in with correct/better/their own figures.
1000 x360 games
700 games that people actually care about being emulated
500 games from the 700 that can run via emulation.
So over all emulation may only be 50%, but as long as they cover what most people consider the most important games that's where it holds most value.
That's also the perception that they give by using uservoice site to vote on games. Even if it is only for information not as a binding rule as to what will be released.
1000 x360 games
700 games that people actually care about being emulated
500 games from the 700 that can run via emulation.
So over all emulation may only be 50%, but as long as they cover what most people consider the most important games that's where it holds most value.
That's also the perception that they give by using uservoice site to vote on games. Even if it is only for information not as a binding rule as to what will be released.
FarticusMaximus
Newcomer
BC was removed, along with flash card readers and USB ports to cut costs. Sony's arrogant 'get a 2nd job to afford it' messaging had blown up in their faces and they needed to cut every corner possible to get the PS3 to sell and not cost Sony a couple hundred bucks every time a unit was sold.
MS listened to the Xbox owners who pushed BC constantly to the no.1 most requested feature on the Xbox wishlist forum. The demand is clearly there.
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