YAPCVC Debate (usability) *spyawn

Sure that's true, but like anything else it's a compromise. For example you may have the above point, but then again you also don't the time honored tradition of having to explain to someone why that shelf full of games that they spent a ton of money on no longer works because the new console has a different logo. Or that you get to play your games anywhere on any machine you have in the house, or mobile on your laptop, or on a plane, etc which that console can't. Or that's there are so many games you can play on pc but can't on console because yours has the wrong logo. And so on. There's always pros and cons, most of which we've been over time and again here.

And?

Incompatibility issues aren't unique to consoles. You would have to do a hefty amount of explaining to any non computer savvy person if they moved to a Mac from a PC or vice versa. The same goes for iOS to Android. Logos matter in a lot of tech spaces other than consoles.

My 6 year old son instantly grasped the concept that my 360/PS3 library wasn't compatible with our new XB1. He at the age of two seemed to have little trouble accepting that the disks for his fisher price toy DVD player weren't compatible with my PS3. Too bad my explanation came after he jammed two of his toy disks into my 1st PS3 and wrecked the load/eject mechanics. LOL.
 
'Usability' is how easily and intuitively and accurately a product does its job.

Except you had rules even for that on consoles. I had mentioned a game usability issue previously and it didn't count to you because you blamed it on the game code and not the console, which apparently then means it conveniently doesn't count as a usability issue. If game code causes an issue on the pc version then it's a testament to usability issues on pc, but the same issue on the console version doesn't count and/or automatically "doesn't happen to most people". That's what I mean, this isn't a level play field.
 
If game code causes an issue on the pc version then it's a testament to usability issues on pc...
What example? Rogue Legacy works on many people's PCs without issues but didn't work 100% on mine. That's clearly a matter of the platform it's running on if some devices can't run it properly. On console it works the same on every machine, which means any problems are the same for everyone and the fault of the software, not the system.

Or, if I download a PS3 game onto my PS3, it'll work. Any issues I do have are the fault of the developer and can't be fixed on my end and would need to be patched.

If I download a PC game onto my PC, it'll probably work, but there's the chance some fringe issues will arise. In such cases I won't know if the game is to blame or the system. I'll have to spend some time contacting support, finding they can't do anything, tweaking about with my computer, and hopefully find a solution like if I unplug my phone from charging before launching the game, it'll work properly. Unless it turns out it was a game bug and it gets patched a few weeks later and my investigations were just wasted effort.

The additional issues PC faces, due the nature of the beast, and similarly faced in Android as it has the same problem with open hardware, make the platform a little more awkward to use than a console that is closed hardware and identical across device. That's obvious and doesn't really need to be discussed. There's no way an open platform with a limitless number of hardware combinations can be expected to run the same complex code integrating all those components exactly the same way on every single permutation. PC trades usability for flexibility.
 
I bought a command and conquer collection for the pc and it wouldn't run on win7 at all. I had to download some unofficial mod/patch to play it. So in my experience pc bc is really hit and miss.
 
And to be clear on that, the fact that you can get an old game running on Win7 means PC has a feature advantage over consoles. No amount of jiggery-pokery is going to enable PS2/PS3 discs to run on PS4. However, the effort needed to find and implement such BC fixes is not user-friendly. Again, PC trades flexibility for usability, creating a more awkward, more complicated system which enables more for those who can wield it.
 
Anyone who tries to argue that a console is as difficult to play games as a PC should have to be escorted to the newly made BEYOND3D Time Out Dungeon.......you know......to sit and think about what they have done.
 
What example? Rogue Legacy works on many people's PCs without issues but didn't work 100% on mine. That's clearly a matter of the platform it's running on if some devices can't run it properly. On console it works the same on every machine, which means any problems are the same for everyone and the fault of the software, not the system.

That's not the case anymore. Because of how many things consoles do now, like tasks in the background, various apps people use, network related stuff and so on, not everyone will be subject to the same issues because everyone's console is not doing the exact same thing anymore. Some people had issues with their ps4 turning itself off, some didn't. Some had blank screen issues, some didn't. Some had game freezing issues, some didn't. Some had game performance issues, others on the same game didn't. Some had game patches fail, some didn't. Some had to reinstall games, some didn't. Some had wifi issues, some didn't. In the old days when a console did a singular thing then what you say was true. Like the first Castlevania on the 8 bit NES which I had and could crash the game on the pink level every time on anyone's NES. Today problems are not that consistent anymore because use of consoles is not consistent anymore either. They really are just pc's masquerading as consoles.


If I download a PC game onto my PC, it'll probably work, but there's the chance some fringe issues will arise. In such cases I won't know if the game is to blame or the system. I'll have to spend some time contacting support, finding they can't do anything, tweaking about with my computer, and hopefully find a solution like if I unplug my phone from charging before launching the game, it'll work properly. Unless it turns out it was a game bug and it gets patched a few weeks later and my investigations were just wasted effort.

That's also not unique to pc anymore. On this very forum someone had posted about how their ps4 game ran like ass (I don't remember who) and of course they got the usual "works for me" replies from everyone else. Only they were having that issue and they were able to fix it by deleting the game and reinstalling it. Why did that happen only to them? Who knows, but stories like that are not uncommon. Isn't the same thing happening with the Witcher? Some are playing it just fine on their ps4 while others are experiencing long load times and choppy performance. This stuff never happened in the old days when consoles truly were universal simple boxes. Heck aren't there cases where being connected to the internet has caused performance issues playing on console for only certain people?


The additional issues PC faces, due the nature of the beast, and similarly faced in Android as it has the same problem with open hardware, make the platform a little more awkward to use than a console that is closed hardware and identical across device. That's obvious and doesn't really need to be discussed. There's no way an open platform with a limitless number of hardware combinations can be expected to run the same complex code integrating all those components exactly the same way on every single permutation. PC trades usability for flexibility.

A few things to say here. For one, the last tests I saw showed Android apps actually crashing less and iOS apps, just fyi. That's probably because iOS8 is a total pile, bar none the most unstable bug ladden os Apple ever shipped. That's not just my experience with it which has been horrendous, but you can check Apple's support pages as well (although Apple tends to delete negative threads sometimes), they actually somehow made it worse than iOS7 which was also an appalling os. Which just goes to show that even though Apple has only a handful of devices to support, it doesn't mean that precludes them from having more issues than the more broad Android.

Second, open hardware doesn't always mean it's worse. Yes there are more hardware permutations but the code has also existed for longer and is more tested. A new fixed device has far less hardware to code support but then again it's brand new code and hence more likely to have issues. Also broad support means you have many more q/a teams from various companies looking at issues rather than just one, and the volume of users is much higher which also results in more effective testing. There's pros and cons to both.

Finally regarding permutations, there aren't anywhere near what their used to be in the old days. Of course there are still more than console but really as stated in a previous post you are basically dealing with two gpu choices, two cpu choices and a handful of motherboard chipset choices which don't change that much anymore. It's not like the old days where you would add in 5 cards from a billion manufacturers and try to get it all to work without irq's clashing or firmwares stabbing each other in the back. Motherboards include most everything now, and most of the functionality on there is made by a handful of the same people that have been doing the same thing for a long time now, and because it's all on the same motherboard they get well tested from mobo manufacturers to make sure it all works together well. Much of that is also well tested now because power improvements on the pc side have not really come from motherboards and cpu's anymore, it's all coming from the gpu. Having said that yeah Amd drivers are ass, so yeah it's not immune to issues. But nothing is nowadays as we see from yet another AAA console game release that ships with issues for some console owners.


Anyone who tries to argue that a console is as difficult to play games as a PC should have to be escorted to the newly made BEYOND3D Time Out Dungeon.......you know......to sit and think about what they have done.

If the exp is good and there is good loot, then I'm down. I'm not going to contest that overall it's easier to game on console. But I would argue that we've come a long way and both are converging. Pc's have become simpler and don't change as much anymore hence issues have come down dramatically. Anyone that tried playing Morrowind in the 90's on pc can attest to that. Meanwhile consoles are going the other way where they are getting more complex and hence are now seeing what were formerly "pc issues".
 
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lol, I can't believe you joker, I spent ages totally disagreeing with you but that last post is perfectly explaining what I initially said about PCs being easier than ever and consoles more complicated than ever (or words to that effect) meaning the gap is much closer than many think.
 
That's not the case anymore. Because of how many things consoles do now, like tasks in the background, various apps people use, network related stuff and so on, not everyone will be subject to the same issues because everyone's console is not doing the exact same thing anymore. Some people had issues with their ps4 turning itself off, some didn't. Some had blank screen issues, some didn't. Some had game freezing issues, some didn't. Some had game performance issues, others on the same game didn't. Some had game patches fail, some didn't. Some had to reinstall games, some didn't. Some had wifi issues, some didn't. In the old days when a console did a singular thing then what you say was true. Like the first Castlevania on the 8 bit NES which I had and could crash the game on the pink level every time on anyone's NES. Today problems are not that consistent anymore because use of consoles is not consistent anymore either. They really are just pc's masquerading as consoles.

I never understood this "They really are just pc's masquerading as consoles". How do you even define that?

The extra functionality that consoles get is a bonus feature that increases the reasons why many may prefer consoles even more. If consoles didnt increase their functions it would have been an extra reason why people should have prefered PCs for games or even a tablet. Regardless, how do you define PC anyways? Are you defining it based on the amount of errors? Or the amount of functions? If you are defining it based on errors then you are admitting that PCs do have errors. If you are defining it based on function you are describing the improvements consoles are experiencing. A long time ago people were using the argument that PCs are better because consoles just play games. Now that consoles are evolving, thats a disadvantage?

The errors you mention arent as frequent as you claim. Most errors are software based due to the inevitable complexity of game programming and even as such console issues are becoming fewer compared to last gen as well. Many errors people were having arent even related to the game console or the game itself. Wi Fi issues are often related to the ISP or the router,. I admit that PS3 had many issues regarding crashes and the likes due to bad design. But errors on my PS4 have been almost zero.
Consoles also experience better efficiency with each generation. Thats why my PS4 behaves faster and is more seamless compared to my PS3.


That's also not unique to pc anymore. On this very forum someone had posted about how their ps4 game ran like ass (I don't remember who) and of course they got the usual "works for me" replies from everyone else. Only they were having that issue and they were able to fix it by deleting the game and reinstalling it. Why did that happen only to them? Who knows, but stories like that are not uncommon. Isn't the same thing happening with the Witcher? Some are playing it just fine on their ps4 while others are experiencing long load times and choppy performance. This stuff never happened in the old days when consoles truly were universal simple boxes. Heck aren't there cases where being connected to the internet has caused performance issues playing on console for only certain people?
They arent common either. This is why fixes are easy. It is usually unrelated with the hardware configuration. Worse case scenario can be a defective HDD. But not having the right GPU, right CPU, right memory, the right drivers, or not having the right graphics settings in the options menu, these are still never an issue on a console.
 
I never understood this "They really are just pc's masquerading as consoles". How do you even define that?

Look under the hood, the software running the show has become just as complex albeit less tested console side. There are multiple systems doing multiple things, the permutations of which vary based on the user. It's all about variables and consoles now have them in spades. In the old days you would shove a rom into the cartridge slot, hit power and the 1k of firmware would boot and execute that rom, nothing more. Today consoles are nothing like that, they in fact resemble pc's more and more everyday. For whatever reason people are able to accept variables when it comes to hardware, but not when it comes to software. Both are very relevant, and I'd argue the software more so because software has become so easy to patch remotely that it's more likely to ship incomplete or with bugs.

As an analogy, think of aftermarket car radios. Back in the day they were very basic units that had fixed functions. A few buttons, a primitive display, am/ fm, tape deck and that's it, they fed music to your speakers. Today they have large screens, run an os, multi task and perform all sorts of functions whose permutations will vary depending on the user that uses them. Now likewise think back again to early aftermarket car radios, did you ever have any issue with them? They were always so simple and fixed function that they always worked. How about current after market radios? Do they ever work on firmware 1.0? Heck the Kenwood 6990 that I have needed 4 firmware updates over the course of a year or so to actually work right. Even though it's a fixed set of hardware, there are so many more software variables now compared to yesteryear that they ship with multiple issues. Throw in a relatively small userbase and it takes even longer to find and resolve said issues. Exactly the same with consoles then and now because consoles are really pc's, less hardware variables but lots of software variables on a somewhat more untested (new) code base along with a somewhat smaller test base.


The errors you mention arent as frequent as you claim.

This as always will depend on who you ask. You and I know there is no point talking about this on a console forum, just as there would be no point talking the reverse on a pc forum. Here everyone has issues on their pc's, on a pc forum they all have issues on their consoles. Depends on who you ask, point of view and all that.


But errors on my PS4 have been almost zero.

Same here, except replace "PS4" with "PC". The difference though is that your anecdote will be accepted here, but mine won't be because all pc's break and/or have driver issues and/or have problems, etc, etc, etc, fact confirmed and so on.
 
This as always will depend on who you ask. You and I know there is no point talking about this on a console forum, just as there would be no point talking the reverse on a pc forum. Here everyone has issues on their pc's, on a pc forum they all have issues on their consoles. Depends on who you ask, point of view and all that.
No-one said consoles don't have issues, nor that the issues aren't getting worse (mentioned in other discussions about consoles becoming PC like). The view expressed here is PC is notably worse for obvious reasons - 1) The software is more complicated with more variables. 2) The hardware adds significant, far more impactful variables.

How is it not possible for PC for have more issues than consoles given this? How can a closed hardware box with limited OS and limited apps be as or more unreliable than hardware completely abstracted running who knows how many background services at once (running nothing but Firefox, I currently have 100 services listed under Task Manager)?
 
How is it not possible for PC for have more issues than consoles given this? How can a closed hardware box with limited OS and limited apps be as or more unreliable than hardware completely abstracted running who knows how many background services at once (running nothing but Firefox, I currently have 100 services listed under Task Manager)?

Because a closed hardware box running on all new code can have more software issues than an open hardware box running mature code, especially when you factor in all but mandatory online patching in this day and age. Not sure why 100 services on task manager is relevant at all. How many is your console os running? How many is your phone running? Is OSX less stable than Windows because it has a longer task list? Is Windows more stable than Unix if it has a smaller task list? Is it impossible to play games in a stable manner if your task list exceeds X? I don't see the relevance.
 
I'm pretty sure my console isn't running a printer driver, a Samsung Kies mobile detection driver, Flash Player plugin, email client, DipAwayMode (WTF is that), Antivirus, Evernote clipper, etc.
 
I really don't know why you bother shifty, he's got to be on a wind-up...just let it go - let joker believe what he wants regardless of how ridiculous.
 
I'm pretty sure my console isn't running a printer driver, a Samsung Kies mobile detection driver, Flash Player plugin, email client, DipAwayMode (WTF is that), Antivirus, Evernote clipper, etc.

See what I mean, strawmen. This is ridiculous.

What do those have to do with crashing a game? Those are isolated in any semi modern os, they can all crash and have no effect on the game you are playing whatsoever. Are you guys still using Windows XP perhaps? Because then what you are saying makes more sense as back then an issue with the stuff you list could affect the task you are on. I mean c'mon, you guys are making up arguments here that make no sense. I mean what, if I leave OneNote running are you guys saying it will crash GTA 5 when I play it? And wtf, are you guys playing on a Sega Genesis or on a modern console? You're going to tell me now that a modern console doesn't have multiple tasks running in the background while you play to handle ancillary functionality?

It's like you guys keep insisting on comparing a 15 year old pc os to 20 year old consoles to make your point. The world has long since moved on from all that and your information is all horribly out of date. This is really silly.
 
I really don't know why you bother shifty, he's got to be on a wind-up...just let it go - let joker believe what he wants regardless of how ridiculous.

See I feel the same way about you guys. Apparently what I've learn here is that you all must be running Windows XP since everything crashes everything, that leaving notepad running in the background will crash pc games, and that modern consoles have zero tasks running in the background. Makes you wonder why the console makers even bother reserving a cpu core and a percentage of the gpu for system use when consoles don't have any tasks running in the background at all. So strange! You guys should tell them to free up that extra processing power for games because clearly y'all know something they don't.
 
Modern consoles = set in stone PC hardware with hand made OS => should be more stable than a PC because it can be thoroughly tested and software/OS changes less often.
 
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