I think this backlash is particularly bad because it was Kickstarter. Before, if he promised the world, you had no real investment. If a review came out, you could find out all the stuff that was missing and be disappointed, but you hadn't actually given money to fund the game. For all I know, Godus is actually good, but his kind of antics seem to have been the straw that broke the camels back, now that people basically paid him to make the game.
Godus - Peter Molyneux under fire
- Thread starter Scott_Arm
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Speaking of broken assurances, there's not just Kickstarter pledgers he's let down, there's also this guy:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-02-11-the-god-who-peter-molyneux-forgot
Seriously, it is becoming increasingly clear Moly is nothing but a complete and utter sham and bullshit artist. Seriously, what a bleeping bleepety-bleep.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-02-11-the-god-who-peter-molyneux-forgot
Seriously, it is becoming increasingly clear Moly is nothing but a complete and utter sham and bullshit artist. Seriously, what a bleeping bleepety-bleep.
Managing expectations is always tricky but fundamental in any business and and situation.
Setting expectations too high and failing customers because of it is something that is completely avoidable.
Doing it repeatedly, time and time again, is a sign of a total lack of managerial skills. And I daresay quite shortsighted.
There's a big difference between having a grand vision, a personal target, and setting expectations too high.
Unfortunately Molineaux has managed to somewhat tarnish his name by failing to live up to the expectations he himself set up, over and over again, and there really was no need for it.
Setting expectations too high and failing customers because of it is something that is completely avoidable.
Doing it repeatedly, time and time again, is a sign of a total lack of managerial skills. And I daresay quite shortsighted.
There's a big difference between having a grand vision, a personal target, and setting expectations too high.
Unfortunately Molineaux has managed to somewhat tarnish his name by failing to live up to the expectations he himself set up, over and over again, and there really was no need for it.
D
Deleted member 11852
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Molyneux always has some reason why something he's promised doesn't materialise. Thinking back, the last game he actually delivered on the promises was Powermonger (Amiga/Atari ST). The first two Populous games and Powermonger were pretty good, but all of the games since have been over sold in terms of mechanics and AI and under-delivered.
That's not to say they're bad games, but they're generally pale imitations of the promise.
edit: Rock Paper Shotgun's interview with Molyneux today. Peter Molyneux Interview: “I haven’t got a reputation in this industry any more”. Yes you do, it's just not a good one.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
I found this one somewhat amusing...
Combined with the follow up...
But there are developer's who DO know. InXile did a great job with Wasteland 2. They slipped a tad on the originally planned ship date, but the game was released with (AFAIK) all kickstarter goals met. And that was a game just shy of potentially being a AAA title. And many other developers seem to deliver just fine. Subset Games with FTL, for example.
But I do agree with him to a point. There are a lot of developers who overpromise and under-deliver. Double Fine for a big one. But many smaller ones also. But a lot of the smaller dev's don't have a history of game development so obviously aren't likely to know about potential development costs. Players like Molyneux and Double Fine don't have any excuses, however.
But the rub is. Many AAA developers often plan big and never are able to deliver completely on their original design documents. The thing is. If you don't say anything, noone will know when the game is released. And more often than not people will enjoy the game (Bioshock is a great example of much of the original design doc. not being achieved but still producing a fantastic game).
With Molyneux, much like the Bioshock example, his games still tend to be quite enjoyable. His problem, however, is that he can't keep his mouth shut until development is almost complete (where you everything you reveal you know is accomplished or will be accomplished even if it isn't close to what was originally promised in the original design doc. that noone ever gets to see). So he basically hypes the game up based on original design documents, and then is always surprised when those can't be achieved due to time and budget constraints.
Long story short. Molyneux isn't particularly worse than most other developers. It's just his problem is, he starts hyping far too early before he has a clue about what will be achieveable within X budget in Y timeframe. Going back to my above example with Wasteland 2, I'm still somewhat amazed that they WERE able to achieve their original goals (AFAIK). However, even if that was withing the X budget, it still didn't make the Y timeframe. But that's far more forgiveable than promising stuff and not delivering. Late but finished is still better than never finished. And unfinished (to original design docs) but released to an audience that thinks its finished (like Bioshock) is still better. Because the game IS finished as far as you know.
My advice to Molyneux. Keep dreaming big. Keep planning grandiose designs. Just keep your F-ing mouth shut until it's close enough to the end of development that you can actually tell people what they are realistically going to get. I still loved Fable even though it didn't deliver on a whole ton of stuff.
Regards,
SB
I do wish someone would ask him about his supposed driving employees away due to his behavior... And more people would take him to task on the student tier for Godus.
D
Deleted member 11852
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You mean the RPS interviewer? What interview would be more of interest of the average gamer; an interview with Peter Molyneux - prominent developer and game industry figure for 30 years - or Johny No-Name Developer?
The interview was unbelievably brutal and in a few places, I felt was a bit too strong, but for the most part RPS were just asking Molyneux to comment on statements and promises that he himself had made in the past then reneged on.
As a gamer I feel no ill will for Molyneux. As I said above I loved the first two Populous games, Powermonger and Syndicate (all on the Amiga), I had forgotten Syndicate when I wrote my earlier post. The only other Molyneux game I bought was Black & White and which, despite not living up to his promises, I still got much enjoyment from. I played Fable and liked it a lot but again it fell short of his promises.
Acknowledging this is the PC forum, but I do wonder if his inability to deliver on his promises contributed to the reasons for his departure from Microsoft.
D
Deleted member 11852
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The Peter Molyneux article train rumbles on. Eurogamer have an opinion piece that includes some ancient info, like how Peter Molyneux got his big break in games and yeah, you guessed it, it was based on lies and deception:
Peter Molyneux said:
Silent_Buddha
Legend
The Magic Carpet games were also true gems and fantastic games.
Do you remember the list of upcoming Bullfrog games pamphlet that used to ship with each Bullfrog game? There was one that at the time I thought was incredible and I didn't believe he had a chance of ever shipping, especially on the tech available at the time (this was early 90's). The Superhero one (forgot the pre-release name of it) that never got released. That promised among other things that you'd be able to rip up a skyskraper in a city and use it as a weapon against super villains. It was at this point that I realized that Molyneux had no concept of the limitations of time, technology, and development budgets. But that didn't mean he couldn't make good games.
It's good for a developer to dream big. Just don't tell us what the dream is BEFORE your game is in any shape to ship. Do like Irrational Games did with Bioshock 1. Tell us AFTER the game has succeeded, how big your dream was and how you weren't able to achieve it in the time and budget you were allowed, not before. Then it becomes a situation of "what could have been" versus undelivered promises. To be fair, Irrational games then fell into the trap of telling some of their big plans too early with Bioshock Infinite leading to unfullfilled promises versus "what could have been."
Regards,
SB
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Thing is, this is just never going to happen. If nothing else, marketing and the money-guys won't let it be like that. Pre-development hype has been with us for what ... 20 years at least, probably 30yrs, maybe forever. Given that the general level of marketing bollocks surrounding everything these days is increasing, not decreasing, there's no way that the level of pre-hype is going to be less in the future.
Molyneux is far from alone in promising and not delivering (look at the shit-storm surrounding Elite, and also Chris Taylors problems). I'll admit I've not played any of Molyneux's games since B&W, but what struck me about that game was that he was promising stuff which a lot of people kinda knew just wasn't even possible (AI specifically). Not just "oh we ran out of time/money to implement", but in the "no-one has figured out how to get this level of AI to work on a super-computer, never mind a PC".
So might I suggest that your assertion might be re-phrased somewhere along the lines "It's good for a developer to dream big. Just don't tell us what the dream is BEFORE you check that it's even f***ing possible to implement, and have at least proto-typed it to the level that you're sure you can deliver"??!
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Heh, yeah, I sorta hit that point but didn't reiterate it fully when I got down to the last paragraph.
And yes, Molyneux and Double Fine aren't the only ones. Watdogs by UBIsoft Montreal is a pretty big example. And yes AAA games is littered with it to some extent. Indie games as well. There's a plethora of Early Access Indie games that have no chance of fullfilling their promises. But at least many Indies have an excuse in that this might be the first large scale game they've attempted. Established players that have been in the industry for ages have less excuses.
The point is, and I prehaps didn't do a great job at driving it home is, that if people are going to demonize Molyneux they have to demonize a whole lot of industry at large as well. Because he's no worse than most AAA developers. He just happens to be VERY vocal about his grand visions. In many ways like Bobby Kotick. He's no worse than any other CEO of any major publishing house. He just happens to be very vocal about things where most CEOs will keep it quiet and keep it in the boardroom.
Regards,
SB
Yeah, the industry is like that. even destiny is full of undelivered promises.. Even though some of them already shown in gameplay in e3....
I feel like the media likes to get a hold of popular punching bags in the press. Look he promises a lot and doesn't always deliever but he releases the games and they are all good.
His kickstarter game isn't doing great but RPS brought up wasteland , the company inxile wasn't even a year into development when they already asked for more money to make Torment. They had barely shown off any os wasteland 2 at that point actually.I was a backer and was very pissed.
Its the same with Double fine , they kickstarted the adventure game and a year later they went back for massive chalice even though the first game wasn't any where near done and they had run out of money for the first game and needed to use money from the second kickstarter to work on the first game.
They get on Peter for not knowing how to budget a game after 30 years but Tim Schafer started at lucasArts in 89 so he should know as well as Peter how to budget a game and at least peter didn't go back to the well for more money.
D
Deleted member 11852
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So you're saying they if people are promised X, buy X with their money and get Y, they shouldn't complain because Y is good? You don't think that people might be disappointed because they didn't get what they were expecting?
Which RPS interview are you referring too? I can't see any reference to Wasteland 2 in the article of 9th February of the interview of the 13th February?
Games developers run dry on funding when games over run or development is more complicated than anticipated. The difference with Peter Molyneux, particularly with the Godus Kickstarter, is he freely admits he knew before he set the Kickstarter target that it wouldn't be enough.
He set a low target with no plan for raising the money needed to deliver his game.What kind of person does that?
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/02/13/peter-molyneux-interview-godus-reputation-kickstarter/
I believe in there. My point is simply this , Its easy to go after Peter cause he has been a public face for a long time and there is this negative energy around him. He has basicly become the whipping boy for this.
But then there are others out there that do the same thing like I brought up but they escape from any of this negative back lash.
As for buying xyz above . People aren't buying X with their money , they are buying Y . Today we have more ways to see what we are buying than ever before , we have reviews , first looks , lets play , twitch and so much more. If people are going out and buying these products without making sure its what they want then its on them. If you feel that Peter deserves this because he promises things and doesn't always deliever then that's fine. But at the same time Rock paper shotgun needs to call up every developer over every game ever made because its been a very very long time since I've played a game that has hit on everything that was promised by the developers and done so in the original time frame.
Just look at Bungie , one of the greatest developers out there with a massive budget and they failed to provide what they promised with a game that lacked content , didn't offer the if you see it you can go to it game play , didn't offer the massive online experience and so much more. But I don't see an article where they call up and harass one of the leads on that game. There are a ton of games that were delayed this year and came out in bad states or were delayed into next year missing their promised shipped dates and I don't see rock paper shot gun harassing those developers.
I'd love to see a list of kickstarter games that came out on time with no delays from rock paper shot gun to see why they are going after the man like this. Its a bit nutty to me and very scary.
I believe in there. My point is simply this , Its easy to go after Peter cause he has been a public face for a long time and there is this negative energy around him. He has basicly become the whipping boy for this.
But then there are others out there that do the same thing like I brought up but they escape from any of this negative back lash.
As for buying xyz above . People aren't buying X with their money , they are buying Y . Today we have more ways to see what we are buying than ever before , we have reviews , first looks , lets play , twitch and so much more. If people are going out and buying these products without making sure its what they want then its on them. If you feel that Peter deserves this because he promises things and doesn't always deliever then that's fine. But at the same time Rock paper shotgun needs to call up every developer over every game ever made because its been a very very long time since I've played a game that has hit on everything that was promised by the developers and done so in the original time frame.
Just look at Bungie , one of the greatest developers out there with a massive budget and they failed to provide what they promised with a game that lacked content , didn't offer the if you see it you can go to it game play , didn't offer the massive online experience and so much more. But I don't see an article where they call up and harass one of the leads on that game. There are a ton of games that were delayed this year and came out in bad states or were delayed into next year missing their promised shipped dates and I don't see rock paper shot gun harassing those developers.
I'd love to see a list of kickstarter games that came out on time with no delays from rock paper shot gun to see why they are going after the man like this. Its a bit nutty to me and very scary.
The thing I see is, that instead of an anonymous entity for which you can't identify a clear culprit or for which the 15 heads can blame circularly each other without resolve, there is clearly a man targetable here. A person you can shout at, you can't shout up the glass-walls of EA headquater, at best it's rather unsatisfying and makes you feel like Don Cichote.
In a way, this starts to be resolved in a human-to-human way, which maybe isn't too bad, because it means things can be forgiven and understood.
In a way, this starts to be resolved in a human-to-human way, which maybe isn't too bad, because it means things can be forgiven and understood.
I remember seeing a special about "12 Monkeys", where Terry Gilliam suddenly turned from a motivated director with visionary sparks coming from him to an autistic liability.
With the above scene, it was a child actor who wasnt able to bring anything interesting to a scene, and Gilliam just sat there with a totally devastated face. The rescue was some managing underling (in the sense that he will never be associated with the works that he helped create), who wasnt happy with the choice early and hired some backup actor.
In the end I think 12 Monkey is his strongest movie to date, and it was rather tame in "Gilliams visions".
Somehow I believe PM and TG to be rather similar in their struggle of bringing their dreams to reality (or rather binding them to a real medium), I realize they are both insanely gifted but I understand they can fail at rather mudane simple tasks. If the rest of the team doesnt "think for them", then the whole effort is out of control
With the above scene, it was a child actor who wasnt able to bring anything interesting to a scene, and Gilliam just sat there with a totally devastated face. The rescue was some managing underling (in the sense that he will never be associated with the works that he helped create), who wasnt happy with the choice early and hired some backup actor.
In the end I think 12 Monkey is his strongest movie to date, and it was rather tame in "Gilliams visions".
Somehow I believe PM and TG to be rather similar in their struggle of bringing their dreams to reality (or rather binding them to a real medium), I realize they are both insanely gifted but I understand they can fail at rather mudane simple tasks. If the rest of the team doesnt "think for them", then the whole effort is out of control
