Encyclopedia Brown & The Mysterious Case of the PS4 and the Missing Anisotropic Filtering

[iroboto]

Hm... so we have images with shadows on either system, as well as images with either version missing them... maybe more shadows are missing on PS4 (or rather, more regularly), but... I don't think this is intentional.

As for AF... this needs to be fixed. If last gen games have it, then a PS4 port cannot, for performance reasons, need to have it removed.

I think it's as simple as there just not being enough leeway to enable it. I can't explain Global's post. That's just weird. But for everything else, some games have proper AF, and some just have a weaker AF. This post from GAF sums it up nicely.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=152050133#post152050133

You'll see in these scenarios where PS4 has equal to X1 in AF, or better - in all cases PC is better in that particular post.

It's clearly a budgeting thing. In some cases they had to lower the budget on X1 too right?

AF isn't free, and neither are shadows, or resolution
I think the developers made the right tradeoffs for the general population.

 

[Allandor]

Behold the power of the balanced PS3!
Don't be afraid of the un-bottlenecked RSX!
Be humbled by the PC-ish architecture of the contention free and low latency GDDR3 ram!
Beware of the gigabytes of textures displayed by The Unfinished Swan...only the PS3 could apply Anisotropic Filtering on them without performance penalty!

well that's really strange. Is there some kind of dependency between cpu and AF?
In case of the "unfinished swan" it shouldn't be the bandwidth. Even though the res-bump would consume some bandwidth, I don't think it is the case here.

 

[djskribbles]

I don't believe the whole lack of AF due to performance thing. Almost every PS4 game that lacks AF (which is a small amount of games), PS4 has better performance and is running at a higher resolution, and sometimes has better effects. And doesn't AF have little impact on performance?

 

[Zane]

Hm... so we have images with shadows on either system, as well as images with either version missing them... maybe more shadows are missing on PS4 (or rather, more regularly), but... I don't think this is intentional.

There are instances where shadows are missing on Xbone but not to the degree on PS or PC. That's one weird bug/tech issue to have let ship into the final product.

 

[Allandor]

I don't believe the whole lack of AF due to performance thing. Almost every PS4 game that lacks AF (which is a small amount of games), PS4 has better performance and is running at a higher resolution, and sometimes has better effects. And doesn't AF have little impact on performance?

No, AF is only "almost free" if the hardware is not saturated. Else it can costs a lot of performance and bandwidth. On the PC you don't see much of a difference (in performance) because the GPUs are far aways from beeing "balanced". The bottleneck on PC GPUs is most the time in other parts of the GPU so AF doesn't matter.
But PS4 has more of almost everything (PS4 vs xbox one vs ps3) except for bandwidth and single-thread CPU performance.

There are instances where shadows are missing on Xbone but not to the degree on PS or PC. That's one weird bug/tech issue to have let ship into the final product.

The shadow thing should be a bug. it is still running smooth when shadows are visible so it should be a bug.

 

[djskribbles]

But again, relatively few PS4 games lack AF, and the ones that do, most have better performance, resolution and sometimes effects on PS4. The large majority of PS4 games that do have AF have no performance issues. I just have a hard time believing that AF is sacrificed for performance... I think there's some other unknown reason.

 

[iroboto]

But again, relatively few PS4 games lack AF, and the ones that do, most have better performance, resolution and sometimes effects on PS4.

That's only dealing into my statement. They removed AF and everything else ran better than their competition.

The large majority of PS4 games that do have AF have no performance issues.

Once again this deals into my statement except on the other hand they had budget for AF.

If we look at Evolved for instance:
PS4 traded up for 1080p and sacrificed shadows and some AF quality. It's certainly better than no AF entirely. The game is attempting to do it's best to stay at V-sync locked 30.

Xbox One couldn't have 1080p, so it ran at 900p, and it had extra room for more shadows and more AF. As it can be seen, 900p with AF, looks comparable to 1080p with less AF. It makes a difference deceptively when hard lines are involved with the textures.

I just have a hard time believing that AF is sacrificed for performance... I think there's some other unknown reason.

It is what it is. Bottlenecks will be different for each game and system.
It's not like developers don't know their title isn't shipping without AF.

They know. If they didn't, they could have patched it and yet none have to date. We all know AF is working for PS4, it's just not 16x AF for all titles; certainly above no AF.

 

[Zane]

PS4 traded up for 1080p and sacrificed shadows and some AF quality. It's certainly better than no AF entirely. The game is attempting to do it's best to stay at V-sync locked 30.

This falls apart when you see the same shadow issue, albeit not as extreme, on PC. They had to trade it away for performance there? Hard time believing that.

 

[function]

Regardless of platform, if you have to make a game look shit in order to hit 30fps and retard pleasing 1080p, you have failed.

Srsly.

 

[Strange]

Regardless of platform, if you have to make a game look shit in order to hit 30fps and retard pleasing 1080p, you have failed.

Srsly.

Astonished the hate here. Did the PS4 eat your dog or something?
The consistent express of disgust at PS4 not having AF for certain games is becoming quite toxic, and I don't think it adds any value to this discussion.

I doubt ANYBODY here would think that AF and 900p=>1080p has the same performance hit.
Lets focus on identifying realistic reasons other than blandly calling "PS4 is too weak to support AF" when in fact PS4 versions regularly bump the resolution up and run at better frame rates - let alone having better effects for some games too.

As for the shadows, if shadows are missing on all three platforms at various different scenes, it suggests that it's a coding problem than a hardware problem.

 

[iroboto]

This falls apart when you see the same shadow issue, albeit not as extreme, on PC. They had to trade it away for performance there? Hard time believing that.

It also falls apart with Global's post and the Stryder game. My argument isn't bullet proof - but for Unfinished Swan and Stryder I can blame the possibility that GNMX is not a great API yet.

For the PC version missing shadows: well..we don't know what settings they put in - it may not have been Ultra max for the screen shots taking given this excerpt here:

Our "go to" system for console-equivalent performance features a Core i3 4130 matched with an entry-level enthusiast GTX 750 Ti and 8GB of RAM. Here, we see 25-30fps performance at 1080p with settings matched to the consoles as close as we can (everything on high, with very high shadows). To achieve console-level frame-rates, you'll need to blend medium and high quality settings, or else simply drop down to 1600x900 resolution.

So they blended medium and high quality settings. Or ran things at high. I'm not sure if there is a higher setting. Perhaps that wasn't enough to get it where it should be.

 

[iroboto]

Astonished the hate here. Did the PS4 eat your dog or something?
The consistent express of disgust at PS4 not having AF for certain games is becoming quite toxic, and I don't think it adds any value to this discussion.

I doubt ANYBODY here would think that AF and 900p=>1080p has the same performance hit.
Lets focus on identifying realistic reasons other than blandly calling "PS4 is too weak to support AF" when in fact PS4 versions regularly bump the resolution up and run at better frame rates - let alone having better effects for some games too.

As for the shadows, if shadows are missing on all three platforms at various different scenes, it suggests that it's a coding problem than a hardware problem.

This is right, even though I badly want to upvote Function lol. In the end if PS4 went with 900p all things on, they'd probably left too much room to spare and would be burned on the stake for parity. This was the best route for the general player base.

 

[Zane]

For the PC version missing shadows: well..we don't know what settings they put in - it may not have been Ultra max for the screen shots taking given this excerpt here:.

The shadows were set to very high, according to DF the same setting as the consoles. The scenes where shaodws are missing aren't the norm. it's in limited scenes which insinuates this isn't normal. There are shots where it's identical everywhere.

And why would they set the PC to anything but the hignest settings for screenshots? defeats the point of comparing the consoles to the PC then. That system you quoted is for console equivalent performance. They talk about using 980's and the like at the highest setiings for 1080 60fps, too.

 

[iroboto]

The shadows were set to very high, according to DF the same setting as the consoles. The scenes where shaodws are missing aren't the norm. it's in limited scenes which insinuates this isn't normal. There are shots where it's identical everywhere.

And why would they set the PC to anything but the hignest settings for screenshots? defeats the point of comparing the consoles to the PC then. That system you quoted is for console equivalent performance. They talk about using 980's and the like at the highest setiings for 1080 60fps, too.

I don'tr have a bullet proof answer, as I indicated earlier - but DF didn't explicitly indicate which PC they used for the screen shots either.
You could equally take the side that time of day matters, but if time of day matters than that clearly has an effect on how that draws shadows. [ie 12 no shadows, but 12:15 draw shadows]

While you are correct I can't make definite statements, I don't believe just chalking it up to an SDK thing/bug. That's more logically wrong than any other possibility we have. It would have been identified and resolved before the first launch game was released and all games would suffer equally from not having it.

For shadows, I'm okay with gathering more evidence, but we'll need more screen shots will need to be taken to prove things. And we'll need someone with ultra high settings and the game on a maxed PC to screen shot equally.
While the position that the game could just be buggy is a fine position to take, PS4 is still consistently worse than the other two when it comes to drawing shadows; its performance as DF records it, is without the additional shadows.

It should be noted if it was ever patched to be correct the performance profile could drop.

Anyway instead of spotting rare instances I suppose you could just swap between these images on your browser and let me know if you think it's a bug. I will say, the triple screen shot was a waste of time, I removed the set I made earlier. Looking at the whole picture here. It can be quite dramatic. This is my last post on this subject. If you think PS4 has got shadows, so be it, it's not worth discussing for me anymore, I know what I see, its quite obvious presented in this way. PS4 is indeed missing a lot of things compared to the other two, unfortunately we can't account for pop in time, so I have no idea if they took a screen shot from the get go, or waiting for everything to load in before screenshot.

First Set
PS4
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/ar.../7/PS4_019.bmp.jpg/EG11/quality/90/format/jpg

X1
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/7/3/6/8/5/7/XO_019.bmp.jpg/EG11/quality/90/format/jpg

PC
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/7/3/6/8/5/7/PC_019.bmp.jpg/EG11/quality/90/format/jpg

Second Set:
PS4:
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/ar.../7/PS4_003.bmp.jpg/EG11/quality/90/format/jpg

X1
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/7/3/6/8/5/7/XO_003.bmp.jpg/EG11/quality/90/format/jpg

PC
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/7/3/6/8/5/7/PC_003.bmp.jpg/EG11/quality/90/format/jpg

Third set:
PS4
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/ar.../7/PS4_016.bmp.jpg/EG11/quality/90/format/jpg

X1
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/7/3/6/8/5/7/XO_016.bmp.jpg/EG11/quality/90/format/jpg

PC
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/7/3/6/8/5/7/PC_016.bmp.jpg/EG11/quality/90/format/jpg

Final Set worth noting:
PS4
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/ar.../7/PS4_001.bmp.jpg/EG11/quality/90/format/jpg

X1
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/7/3/6/8/5/7/XO_001.bmp.jpg/EG11/quality/90/format/jpg

PC
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/7/3/6/8/5/7/PC_001.bmp.jpg/EG11/quality/90/format/jpg

 

[Zane]

If you think PS4 has got shadows, so be it, it's not worth discussing for me anymore

What? I never said it does. I'm stating the PC suffers from a similar problem so, to me, the performamce argument doesnt work well. Take them out, in some instances, whilst leaving everything there for an Xbox. That makes no sense.

 

[Zane]

What? I never said it does. I'm stating the PC suffers from a similar problem so, to me, the performamce argument doesnt work well. Take them out, in some instances, whilst leaving everything there for an Xbox. That makes no sense.

I should also state again, it makes no sense to take screens at anything but max settings for the PC. They've always maxed out settings, to my knowledge, in the past, why stop with Evolve?

 

[chris1515]

Astonished the hate here. Did the PS4 eat your dog or something?
The consistent express of disgust at PS4 not having AF for certain games is becoming quite toxic, and I don't think it adds any value to this discussion.

I doubt ANYBODY here would think that AF and 900p=>1080p has the same performance hit.
Lets focus on identifying realistic reasons other than blandly calling "PS4 is too weak to support AF" when in fact PS4 versions regularly bump the resolution up and run at better frame rates - let alone having better effects for some games too.

As for the shadows, if shadows are missing on all three platforms at various different scenes, it suggests that it's a coding problem than a hardware problem.

+1 if shadow are missing on PC version it is not a performance problem.

 

[Strange]

I see absolutely NO shadows on this screenshot. The patterns all over the ground must be something that does not resemble the shadows on the below screenshot.

Admit it, PS4 can't handle shadows, it's missing shadow maps, and if it tried it would bomb the framerate. Must be a hardware deficiency (like insufficient bandwidth), and the devs are idiots to even try to target 1080p on the PS4 as it obviously can't handle it with all the effects.

Does this help make your point clear?

And no, I don't think it's a hardware issue but more of a coding issue.
If you took your time to watch this video

it's clear as day that both versions have shadows in most cases. Oh you can even spot a shadow POPIN at 4:02. (PS4 version left barrel)

shadows don't exist? nah.
Bugged? probably.

Considering how they mashed together gameplay into something overdependent on the skills of a few to make or break a game, I'm can't really expect too much from them.

 

[Metal_Spirit]

You'll see in these scenarios where PS4 has equal to X1 in AF, or better - in all cases PC is better in that particular post.

It's clearly a budgeting thing. In some cases they had to lower the budget on X1 too right?

AF isn't free, and neither are shadows, or resolution
I think the developers made the right tradeoffs for the general population.

Why or how do you conclude such a thing?

Strider has absolutly no AF in PS4. And clearly in that game no console is bottlenecked!

Or do you really believe this game was so heavy that had to do tradeoffs

But this was so light that had not:

The only logical situation to account for all cases seems to be some kind of bug on the SDK or maybe the Wrapper.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The only logical situation to account for all cases seems to be some kind of bug on the SDK or maybe the Wrapper.

That seems a good suggestion. Are the games with shadow/AF issues using GNMX or GNM?