Tomb Raider exclusivity fallout thread *spawn

[Deleted member 11852]

Then you go on to list the reasons that you have changed your mind. All the things you listed happened before Halo Tmcc was anounced at E3 except for the Tomb Raider announcement. So based on your post Rise of the Tomb Raider is the major thing influencing you not purchasing the console.

And again, unlike others you posted, you didn't get the point of my post. It wasn't that the Tomb Raider thing was a "major thing" but it certainly was a telling thing. As Prophecy2K said in this post, this happened on new managements watch. New management (Phil Spencer) hasn't seemingly changed the Xbox One communications strategy and I urge you to re-read the painful Eurogamer interview where we went to lengths to avoid answering questions when the purpose of the interview was to provide clarification!

Thats why I reduced it down to a single reason.

Yet my post makes it clear that it isn't a single reason. Please re-read the post. Perhaps you have heard the phrase, the straw that broke the camel's back? That sums this up for me.

 

[shredenvain]

Well, your post would suggest that you didn't read his post, since you summed up his reasoning to one point.

Whether or not the other events happened prior to the Halo TMCC announcement is irrelevant. This latest Tomb Raider fiasco is just the one that made him question his XB1 purchase again, in addition to the other reasons.

That is exactly my point man. I dont think the timing of the events are irrelevant though.
Also how is Tomb Raider timed exclusivity a fiasco?
That literally doesnt make any sense. Their objective was to give future and present Xbox owners a reason to look forward to holiday 2015. Same reason Nintendo got exclusive rights to Beyonetta 2. Same reason Sony made a deal with Capcom for Deep Down.
I can understand PS only gamers being upset for having to wait 6 months or so to play the game, but you could say the same in many other situations from the past for gamers on other platforms. I just feel some people are really making more of this situation than should be. I mean no offense or lack of respect to anyone here.

 

[shredenvain]

And again, unlike others you posted, you didn't get the point of my post. It wasn't that the Tomb Raider thing was a "major thing" but it certainly was a telling thing. As Prophecy2K said in this post, this happened on new managements watch. New management (Phil Spencer) hasn't seemingly changed the Xbox One communications strategy and I urge you to re-read the painful Eurogamer interview where we went to lengths to avoid answering questions when the purpose of the interview was to provide clarification!



Yet my post makes it clear that it isn't a single reason. Please re-read the post. Perhaps you have heard the phrase, the straw that broke the camel's back? That sums this up for me.

Dude can we please stop with the rolly eyes? You should realize that the straw that broke the camels back was my point. If you are willing to miss out on a game that you might enjoy because MS bought timed deal for Tomb Raider that is your right.
I just think that it is a silly reason. So please I hope you understand the point of my post and we can stop having an eye rolling battle. You know we have gotten along quite well before these posts. I meant no disrespect.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Also how is Tomb Raider timed exclusivity a fiasco?
That literally doesnt make any sense.

If you don't understand the furore then I can only assume you attach little value in clear and transparent communication. I have no problems with third party exclusives (timed or full) and I said as much in this very thread. And if you care to read back, I was actually very excited for Microsoft. Initially. Then they began to talk more and more and engage what I can only describe in deliberately obfuscation regarding the exclusivity. Now it wasn't a case of not being able to be clear, because eventually they did state it was timed exclusivity but only under relentless questioning, but it's clear to me that they did not want to be transparent.

Their right, sure, but equally they can't be surprised when gamers and media are asking questions, particularly when Sony went out of their way to be so clear about game exclusivity on PS4 at the very same event.

Entering in a long term (many year) platform relationship with a company who seem incapable of being transparent looks very tiring and quite frustrating.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I don't know what a rolling eye battle is. Seriously! I use emoticons to express emotion to make it clear how I'm feeling about some things and the Phil Spender interview - well due to the lack of a head smashing against a wall (which is how I genuinely felt!) the rolly eyes will have to do

And I'm not arguing against you, I just have a different view of the situation. Neither of us are "right", how we each perceive the situation is obviously subjective.

 

[djskribbles]

That is exactly my point man. I dont think the timing of the events are irrelevant though.
Also how is Tomb Raider timed exclusivity a fiasco?
That literally doesnt make any sense. Their objective was to give future and present Xbox owners a reason to look forward to holiday 2015. Same reason Nintendo got exclusive rights to Beyonetta 2. Same reason Sony made a deal with Capcom for Deep Down.
I can understand PS only gamers being upset for having to wait 6 months or so to play the game, but you could say the same in many other situations from the past for gamers on other platforms. I just feel some people are really making more of this situation than should be. I mean no offense or lack of respect to anyone here.

All of the other games you've listed were announced for whatever platforms from day 1. Tomb Raider was a multiplatform title up until E3, then was thought to be an exclusive, then it took over a week to finally find out that it's a timed exclusive. I guess I understand that MS wanted to do everything in their power to make it sound like an exclusive. And admittedly it bugs me because I was (and still am) interested in TRoTR and now I have to wait. But so far this gen, Sony has made a clear distinction between what is exclusive and what is timed with "coming first to PlayStation" and "Exclusive to PlayStation".

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Everyone knows what the exclusivity of Tomb Raider is now, and everyone knows what the exclusivity of Sunset Overdrive is.

I agree.

Now people are just complaining about "messaging."

Because it's poop. Rather than just let it slide which'll do MS ongoing PR harm, they should realise they've got a problem and fix it. Same as Sony needed to years back. Sony's PR went from awesome from PS1 and PS2 to craptastic in PR3's beginnings and they even turned customers off. They received lots of criticism, learnt, changed, and are back on a high. MS need to stop, examine, refocus. Us forumites are offering them useful suggestions about things they can change.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Instead of worrying about whether the product is actually good and heading in a good direction, everyone is worried about how it is being explained, even though they don't need it explained to them.

Well this isn't the thread for discussion on whether TR will actually be a good game. There should be a thread in the game subforum for that.

Frankly, the question of whether the game will be good or not is not much of a concern because its a TR game, hence a title in a franchise with an already established level of quality. The TR formula works, hence why the series is so popular, so they'd really have to screw up to make the next game a turkey.

Everyone hates PR, but for some reason they're really concerned when someone isn't good at it. Pro tip: Don't listen to PR. Just buy shit if you think it's good and fits your needs. Stop pretending to be Mass. Comm. grads. If you think the product isn't good, then don't buy it. Who cares if some of the people don't handle interviews well, unless of course you have financial investments in the company or something. Another pro tip: every single gaming figurehead that does an interview is trying to sell something. You shouldn't listen to any of them.

I don't believe people are criticising MS PR because they are concerned about it. Neither are they pretending to be Mass. Comm. graduates.

People are criticising MS PR, because people are consumers to whom the same PR is directed. That's esentially the point of PR, and so you don't have to be an expert in the field of communications to be able to say whether a companies PR strategy or messaging is working or not.

PR is intended to build consumer's confidence in a company, service or product. To assuage fears and bring clarification when consumers have legitimate questions. You seem to be advocating for people to just sit schtum and not raise up their voices when a company doesn't seem to be handling their legitimate questions and concerns properly. How does that position benefit consumers or MS?

If anything I would have thought you would be championing criticism of MS' PR messaging, since the quicker they learn how to fix up the mess and get the messaging back on point, the happier gamers on all sides in general will be.

 

[Sound_Card]

Exclusives =/= Paid off multiplaform sequels.

I don't go into buying a PS4 edition of Tomb Raider HD only to find out the sequel was intentionally taken out of my hands. Because it literally would never have happened if not for MS's involvement with the money

Nobody has a problem with exclusives. Everyone should have a problem with sequels to multiplatform games intentionally walled off from other user bases because of moneyhats. Are users of those plaforms who EXPECT third party multiplats to be multiplatform supposed to be happy about that? You really expect them to just be singing the praises of SE because they can't play the game?

I bought TR 3 times at full price, for 360, PS3 and PS4, and now your saying 2/3's of my support was nothing. That's real nice. Don't treat people like they are idiots.

They took it from your hands?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Well this isn't the thread for discussion on whether TR will actually be a good game. There should be a thread in the game subforum for that.

Frankly, the question of whether the game will be good or not is not much of a concern because its a TR game, hence a title in a franchise with an already established level of quality. The TR formula works, hence why the series is so popular, so they'd really have to screw up to make the next game a turkey.



I don't believe people are criticising MS PR because they are concerned about it. Neither are they pretending to be Mass. Comm. graduates.

People are criticising MS PR, because people are consumers to whom the same PR is directed. That's esentially the point of PR, and so you don't have to be an expert in the field of communications to be able to say whether a companies PR strategy or messaging is working or not.

PR is intended to build consumer's confidence in a company, service or product. To assuage fears and bring clarification when consumers have legitimate questions. You seem to be advocating for people to just sit schtum and not raise up their voices when a company doesn't seem to be handling their legitimate questions and concerns properly. How does that position benefit consumers or MS?

If anything I would have thought you would be championing criticism of MS' PR messaging, since the quicker they learn how to fix up the mess and get the messaging back on point, the happier gamers on all sides in general will be.

I don't care if they go on stage at E3 in garbage bags and tinfoil hats and start ranting about the fluoride being used for mind control and a secret plot by alien body snatchers. Ultimately all I care about is that the product is good, and fits my needs. If the information is out there, then I don't care how they say it. You guys can argue about it, I just don't understand why. You want them to clean up their PR? So, if they do, assuming it's really as bad as everything thinks, then what's the end result for you? Peace of mind?

Edit: I mean, if you want to complain about dumb PR, then read this article and start bitching. These kinds of articles come out every day. No one says a word, because we all know what the deal is and we know it doesn't matter. Essentially, Destiny is going to come out on PC, and they're trying to strongly hint at it without officially announcing it because they don't want to cannibalize the sales of the console versions now. I'm assuming there's going to be mass outrage when people find out they were not properly and clearly informed of Bungie's intent for Destiny on the PC, http://www.polygon.com/2014/9/8/6120873/Destiny-PC-version-port. Sony has exclusive deals with Destiny for exclusive rights to the advertisements so they can make it appear as if it's an exclusive when it's not. Where's the outrage? There is none. This shit happens all the time, with every single studio that's involved in gaming in some way. PR is an artful form of dishonesty to sell you something. You're basically acknowledging it's inherently dishonest, but you get upset when the appearance of honesty is not maintained.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Peace of mind?

In simple terms, yes. It'll mean less confusion and aggro. It'd mean this thread would never have existed because they'd have said, "Tomb Raider is a timed exclusive," and no-one would have misunderstood that to mean it was 'taken' from their platform and be ranting to get the game 'restored' to their platform.

The message is essential. You may think you don't care what MS say as long as they deliver, but I doubt that's entirely true. If they went on stage next week and said Live was going up to $500 on 1st January in 2015, but then in 2015 keep the price the same because they were only messing about, would people be out of order to complain between now and the end of the year that the price is ridiculous? Of course not. Human beings have the unique capacity to consider our future. We don't have to wait until the future becomes the present to understand it and form opinions and choices in action. However, to do that well we need correct information, and incorrect information therefore doesn't go down well.

For MS as a business, they need the consumers to trust what they say when they try to produce a product/service people want, which means communicating in a way these people understand. That's pretty rudimentary business practice. It's the basis of all marketing, forming the right message and conveying it correctly. That's what your product is judged on first long before anyone owns it. It's the message that convinces people to buy the product, at which point it's the actual product that matters. MS could make the best console ever, 3 TF of Awesomeness, with the most intuitive UI and most comprehensive set of features ever, sell it for $200 with multiple free AAA exclusives, and have the best console ever made. If they reveal that by a 5 minute presentation where they say, "We don't really understand the point of gaming so threw this machine together. No idea if you console gamers want it or not. Whatever. *shrug*," the product would be lost to the message. We had this with some of their original ideas like game sharing. They did such a crap job of communicating their vision that people misunderstood it and took a dislike to the console based on what they understood it to be. Which is perfectly natural and sane - people form opinions based on information. If you want the right opinion from them, you have to provide the right information.

All this gen so far, MS's message has been obtuse. From renaming conventional parts of a GPU and generating all sorts of noise when trying to talk about their architecture, to saying their platform does one thing at a show and then having a web FAQ that explains it as something quite different, to presenting a conventional timed exclusive as being a platform exclusive, and now this snowballing where a light-hearted, tongue in cheek 'exclusive exclusive' tweet has people up in arms once again. They need to get on top of it. If they remain as complacent as you are, with the view that the message really doesn't matter, they'll lose business.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Human beings also have the unique ability to choose whether or not to be upset or offended.

I think you guys are confusing my not giving a shit about PR for a lack of understanding about how it works. You guys may as well start posting about how you don't think MacDonalds' marketing strategy isn't good enough for your liking if you're going to start writing about PR.

Edit: Basically what I'm saying is, this thread was never necessary if people behaved rationally and chose not to get upset before they had more information. If they were prepared to wait less than half a day (OH MY GOD!) they would have had the information they needed to know that Tomb Raider 2 would be on PS4. Just because we can make decisions ahead of time, doesn't mean you should. A person should wait until they have the information they need to make a decision. Sometimes you make assumptions and you get burned. That's life. You can blame the PR people for not explaining well enough, but it doesn't excuse people's own behaviour. Personal accountability means something.

Just going to drop this here.

I often say I’m a video game culture writer, but lately I don’t know exactly what that means. ‘Game culture’ as we know it is kind of embarrassing -- it’s not even culture. It’s buying things, spackling over memes and in-jokes repeatedly, and it’s getting mad on the internet.

It’s young men queuing with plush mushroom hats and backpacks and jutting promo poster rolls. Queuing passionately for hours, at events around the world, to see the things that marketers want them to see. To find out whether they should buy things or not. They don’t know how to dress or behave. Television cameras pan across these listless queues, and often catch the expressions of people who don’t quite know why they themselves are standing there.

‘Games culture’ is a petri dish of people who know so little about how human social interaction and professional life works that they can concoct online ‘wars’ about social justice or ‘game journalism ethics,’ straight-faced, and cause genuine human consequences. Because of video games.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/224400/Gamers_dont_have_to_be_your_audience_Gamers_are_over.php

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Edit: Basically what I'm saying is, this thread was never necessary if people behaved rationally and chose not to get upset before they had more information. If they were prepared to wait less than half a day (OH MY GOD!) they would have had the information they needed to know that Tomb Raider 2 would be on PS4.

Not quite. Firstly there was no obvious reason to be uncertain because there's a clear language that solves any uncertainties. If it was a timed exclusive, why was it not announced as such? If someone uses a phrase with a clear definition, you don't need to doubt its meaning. Then there was the Crystal Dynamics information that was a secondary source supporting the wrong idea that it was a perpetual exclusive. It's not like the information was extremely sketchy and gamers had to do mental gymnastics to come to the exclusive conclusion.

Then when it was uncertain, the games media, a bunch of gamers themselves asking the questions their audience wanted the answer to, asked MS and MS failed to give a clear answer. that 'half a day' people had to wait (OH MY GOD) was only half a day because EG did their job properly and pressed MS for a clear explanation. It took three questions to get the information that there was a duration on the deal. So don't pretend MS were being up front and honest and everyone was getting the wrong end of the stick. Their message, whether deliberately or through inability, was that the game was only on Xbox and it took a bit of effort to get the reality spelled out. That half a day could have been much longer if EG had stopped at one question.

Just because we can make decisions ahead of time, doesn't mean you should. A person should wait until they have the information they need to make a decision.

At the same time, you have to form an opinion eventually, unless it's a matter of no interest to you. I can agree that lots of people reacted too quickly on just the "exclusively in 2015" announcement, but that doesn't undo MS's poor communication on this, either on the initial reveal by Harrison, nor the follow-up clarifications from the likes of CD, nor the less-than-transparent interview. Yes, you can argue everyone should chill out and approach information more maturely, but good luck getting the world to change that way. Alternatively, from a business POV, MS can understand the audience they've got and work with it. To me it's pretty obvious which focus is going to do MS the most good, and it's not them telling people to stop jumping to conclusions and wait a few days after a bit of info is provided for it all to get cleared up.

I suppose from a personal POV, not that I'm really fussed, I could approach MS's reveals with the view, "Okay, that's their line now. I'll wait a week for the interviews and FAQs before I try to find out what's really happening..."

 

[Scott_Arm]

Microsoft was not announcing the game coming out on other platforms, especially not with a timeline, because it would reduce the impact of their "exclusivity." Is withholding that information or being evasive in answering questions about it dishonest? Probably, yes. Do I care? No. Does it matter? No. Does their honesty/dishonesty have any effect on me whatsoever? No. Do I care if Microsoft is doing a good job of communicating with unruly gamers? No.

I'm also pretty sure they'd answered that the game could come out on other platforms before the Eurogamer interview. They just said it was up to Crystal Dynamics and they weren't going to announce the game for other platforms. Maybe it could have taken six months for people to find out it was going to be released on PS4 if people hadn't flipped out. What difference would it have made? If you already had a PS4, then it's already too late and you just have to wait to find out. One day, six months, it really makes no difference. If you were waiting to buy a console, and Tomb Raider was one of the primary reasons decisions, then you basically have a full year or more to make up your mind, because the game isn't going to be out for that long. I know asking Gamers to wait for an answer is like asking a normal person to go without food and water for a week, but waiting half a day to flip out instead of five minutes after the announcement isn't a stretch.

 

[Prophecy2k]

I don't care if they go on stage at E3 in garbage bags and tinfoil hats and start ranting about the fluoride being used for mind control and a secret plot by alien body snatchers. Ultimately all I care about is that the product is good, and fits my needs. If the information is out there, then I don't care how they say it. You guys can argue about it, I just don't understand why. You want them to clean up their PR? So, if they do, assuming it's really as bad as everything thinks, then what's the end result for you? Peace of mind?

Shifty's already covered this, and I fully agree with his position so I'll leave it at that.

Edit: I mean, if you want to complain about dumb PR, then read this article and start bitching. These kinds of articles come out every day. No one says a word, because we all know what the deal is and we know it doesn't matter. Essentially, Destiny is going to come out on PC, and they're trying to strongly hint at it without officially announcing it because they don't want to cannibalize the sales of the console versions now. I'm assuming there's going to be mass outrage when people find out they were not properly and clearly informed of Bungie's intent for Destiny on the PC, http://www.polygon.com/2014/9/8/6120873/Destiny-PC-version-port. Sony has exclusive deals with Destiny for exclusive rights to the advertisements so they can make it appear as if it's an exclusive when it's not. Where's the outrage? There is none. This shit happens all the time, with every single studio that's involved in gaming in some way. PR is an artful form of dishonesty to sell you something. You're basically acknowledging it's inherently dishonest, but you get upset when the appearance of honesty is not maintained.

This is a false equivalency again. It's not the same situation and so will not illict the same reaction from gamers.

Sony's deal on Destiny is not for exclusive marketing rights, rather its a co-marketing deal. These things have existed since last gen, when MS started it with deal like the COD deal and the rather lol-worthy Lost Planet deal (in which there was that really awkward and cringeworthy press conference when LP2 was first revealed, where Capcom couldn't even confirm the game was in development for the PS3).

Deals like this are signed in a way such that the publisher creates additional content for the platform holder and and platform holder spends marketing dollars on the game. Thus in Sony's case, why would anyone expect them to mention the XBone and PC in the ads that they solicit? That the product is perceived by some uninformed consumers as an exclusive is arguably not the point of the deal, rather the point is to identify the product with a given platform, thus establishing that link in the minds of consumers.

I'd agree that the practice is "calculated" scott_arm, whether it be Sony or MS thaty does it. But it's not "bad messaging", since everybody who follows the industry or merely likes to stay informed is clearly aware of the platforms the game is launching on, and the publisher Activision has been free to state that openly (as opposed to the many cases last gen where pusb couldn't even mention a PS3 version of their game to the press). The press in particular are kept well informed, and haven't been fed half-truths and PR-speak to try to make out that Destiny is a PS4 exclusive. So it's not the same thing.

As for your bit about Destiny on PC, I'd argue that publishers like to launch their biggest games on console first because they know that on consoles piracy is much less of a problem than on PC. Regardless of whether or not PC piracy still exists, the pubs do believe it, and so you often see multi-platform console games launching later on PC for this reason. GTV V is a prime example.

 

[dobwal]

Sony's deal on Destiny is not for exclusive marketing rights, rather its a co-marketing deal.

Its the same thing in this case. Hence why you don't see traditional advertising for Destiny by MS because they are prohibited from doing so. If there was no exclusivity rights surrounding the marketing of Destiny, MS would be free to market it on its own.

The marketing is done this way to create a sense that Destiny is a PS4 only title or tightly bound to PS4 to the general gaming audience. Having a bunch of Destiny commericials with Xbox logos would help destroy that messaging.

Both MS/Sony readily employed this method last gen and will continue to do it this gen.

Marketing is based on the act of creating a positive message around the value of a product. When you see a drug commericial, all the butterflies, bike riding in the park, two people lovingly holding each other and the narrator's spiel about how the drug can make you life better, thats marketing. All the talk about side effects at the end isn't marketing, its there by law.

And thats what some people seem to be arguing. That MS basically is wrong for not providing disclaimers on its term "exclusivity". But such disclaimer are not for the benefit of Xbox gamers but for the benefit of the userbase of their competitors. Its like expecting Sony to invest in an exclusive co-marketing deal and then having to put Xbox logo on their advertisements to note mulitplat support.

You can use the terms "wrong", "douchebag" or "dick move" (its your prerogative and its easy to understand the motivation) to MS actions surrounding TR, but lets not ignore that what MS is doing is standard business practice that shows up in many forms in the console market.

 

[MrFox]

MS made it look like TR was exclusive. PS/PC fans were angry at the exclusivity. Journalists and xbox fans were calling this news the megaton of the show (until it wasn't).

Sony never said nor implied Destiny was exclusive. Nobody in the media or among the public ever thought Destiny was exclusive. There was no FUD angle being exploited.

This is boring, and this thread is becoming cyclic, too much effort being put basically in 3 arguments to defend Microsoft against the evil gamers who dared talking about this.
1. Sony did it too (every single one of these were false equivalence)
2. Gamers are crybabies (ad hominem)
3. PR is always dishonest, it's all the same (false equivalence again)

These shallow arguments don't hold up to scrutiny.

 

[Dave Baumann]

And equally as dobwal says, its not MS's goal to placate non-users or non-potential users of their platform with the announcement, they don't have to and that is not serving the purpose of the deal. Whether you think that the fall out from that generated more positive or negative sentiment is a matter of opinion, but perhaps they are just ascribing to the notion that any publicity is good publicity, and from that regards its certainly kept the conversation rolling.

But you're correct, it is cyclic and this thread isn't going to progress in any meaningful way.

Closed