AMD GPU14 Tech Day Event - Sept 25'th

[DieH@rd]

I think that AMD did this independently, creating their fork of highly optimized OpenGL with more similarity to the PS4 API. But that's only my speculation.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

If Mantle is so much linked to Xbox Low level API.. I believe MS is not completely stranger to it... And as it is said so far, it will permit to port Xbox games a lot more easy and faster to PC ( and vice versa ).

I dont know how it will turn, but its not an hazard if AMD push this right now, when they have all console hardware in hand.

I can only see MS happy if Mantel doesn´t travel to SteamOS/Linux world.

 

[Trawler]

If Mantle truly is similar to the new consoles' low level API, I'm surprised MS didn't stipulate that it only be released for Windows. Perhaps that's something they missed or overlooked in the X1's GPU contract.

Lots of people talking Linux but this is great news for Mac owners as well. And isn't SteamOS tied to nVidia?

AMD has played it smart big time. Great news for AMD GCN owners, it's locked my next purchase in.

Surely it'll be a big concern for NVidia. If I were them I'd get busy convincing publishers not to release Mantle ports.

 

[liolio]

Well I think Anand got this wrong (with all due respect), I would think that the XB1 api is based on whatever AMD was working on, not the other way around.
I agree with Carmack MSFT or Sony might not be happy with to see some competition taking shape already when they have yet to release their new systems supposed to last for who knows how long.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

I think that AMD did this independently, creating their fork of highly optimized OpenGL with more similarity to the PS4 API. But that's only my speculation.

I am sure yesterday some people in Sony/MS camp upped their eyebrow when listened to the AMD conference. Even the trueaudio presentation could have raised suspicions.

 

[DieH@rd]

Surely it'll be a big concern for NVidia. If I were them I'd get busy convincing publishers not to release Mantle ports.

I dont think they will do that. They can always try to greatly expand TWIMTBP program.

 

[Trawler]

I dont think they will do that. They can always try to greatly expand TWIMTBP program.

They can try, perhaps even release their own low level API to achieve similar performance gains.

But they'll never be able to match the huge key benefit that (supposedly) Mantle allows developers to reuse most of their optimized console code.

 

[Malo]

I suppose the real question is, can Mantle and DirectX be used simultaneously, so that devs could use calls to Mantle for some more extreme effects or when much more performance is required?

If so, this is a heavy, heavy blow for AMD. If it's a choice of either Mantle or DirectX it's going to be much more difficult for them to convince more devs to go with it.

I think the mention of the fact that a lot of games nowadays are made with a select few game engines goes a big way with this. If Frostbite, Cryengine, Unity and U4 have DX+Mantle+OpenGL support then game developers don't really have anything to worry about.

A lot of games will be fine just using DX9/11 to achieve what they want, it's the large scale games that will want the most out of the hardware and I believe it's going to be rarer as time goes on that they use fully custom engines.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

I think the mention of the fact that a lot of games nowadays are made with a select few game engines goes a big way with this. If Frostbite, Cryengine, Unity and U4 have DX+Mantle+OpenGL support then game developers don't really have anything to worry about.

A lot of games will be fine just using DX9/11 to achieve what they want, it's the large scale games that will want the most out of the hardware and I believe it's going to be rarer as time goes on that they use fully custom engines.

Yeah, this has potentially converted every AMD GPU card in a kind of console-like performer. This is huge for AMD. And so is bad for Sony and MS. Before i could say about Battlefield 4 that the PS4 version would perform better than a PC with a 7870. Now i would say the Mantle version will look and perform in a similar way at least. How much is a PC with a 7870 ( now with a R9-270X )?. 600 euros?. and with a R7-260X ( similar gpu to XB1)?. 500 euros?. In this last case you even get Trueaudio as a bonus.

 

[DavidGraham]

Before i could say about Battlefield 4 that the PS4 version would perform better than a PC with a 7870.

Consoles have no hope of catching up to even the most similar PCs , people here keep expecting PS4 to perform better than 7870 , when in fact that is never going to happen,at least for these reasons:

-Very weak CPU
-Specs lower than an actual 7870 (in-between 7850 and 7870)
-Lower clocks for the whole system

 

[Love_In_Rio]

Consoles have no hope of catching up to even the most similar PCs , people here keep expecting PS4 to perform better than 7870 , when in fact that is never going to happen,at least for these reasons:

-Very weak CPU
-Specs lower than an actual 7870 (in-between 7850 and 7870)
-Lower clocks for the whole system

I don´t agree. Compare a ps3 game with a PC version of the same game with a 7600GT and after that with a more powerful 7800GTX. For example: Oblivion that came out at the PS3 launch windows,

http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/video/Oblivion/oblivion-highend.png

What is then the point of a low level api and the complaints of developers about drawcalls, poor use of gpu resources and the likes?. Why Repi is so happy developing Mantle and why the R9-290X Mantle version will kill a Titan DirectX version in Battlefield 4?.

 

[liolio]

Consoles have no hope of catching up to even the most similar PCs , people here keep expecting PS4 to perform better than 7870 , when in fact that is never going to happen,at least for these reasons:

-Very weak CPU
-Specs lower than an actual 7870 (in-between 7850 and 7870)
-Lower clocks for the whole system

That is why I'm hardly excited about next gen, they are neither outstanding neither cheap.
After 7 years I'm not that willing to wait for them to get the price down in my comfort zone.
I'm close to be done with their business model, I won't subsidize their front end /appstore /services / "whatever you call it" because their app-store has yet to return a profit...

 

[DavidGraham]

I don´t agree. Compare a ps3 game with a PC version of the same game with a 7600GT and after that with a more powerful 7800GTX. For example: Oblivion that came out at the PS3 launch windows,

PS3 had a different architecture all together with a very powerful CPU, it also had an almost top of the line GPU (at that time). this is not the case anymore .

Consoles optimizations could give them an edge , but not enough to overcome their own technical limitations : a weak CPU and castrated GPU.

 

[Arwin]

I'd expect Mantle to help PC pull away from (or keep up with, depending on your hardware) consoles faster. Of course, the consoles still have some CPU/GPU integration advantages, so there still be some room for optimisation not immediately available in the PC space yet.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

PS3 had a different architecture all together with a very powerful CPU, it also had an almost top of the line GPU (at that time). this is not the case anymore .

Consoles optimizations could give them an edge , but not enough to overcome their own technical limitations : a weak CPU and castrated GPU.

RSX was a 7600GT.Weaker than a 7800GTX for not talking about NV40 (8800GTX). And for example Oblivion only used the PPU in Cell.

 

[DavidGraham]

RSX was a mix between 7800GTX and 7900GTX , with half the ROPs and lower frequencies .

Games on consoles deploy lower amounts of lighting, shadowing , texturing and level of detail than PCs , even operate with no AA and can sacrifice resolution (even below 720p) to achieve 30 fps , and even go out of sync if out of frame budget .

Optimizing the code is often beneficial , but that doesn't mean it can do miracles , it doesn't turn a dead old chip into a living new one .. like wise, if your specs is holding you back , then optimizing the code will help improve the situation, but will not make you achieve much more than your actual technical capabilities .

 

[LeStoffer]

Some technical concerns are mentioned on this thread. The Mantle API has been in design and development for more than 2 years and rest assured we've had some time to think about the best way to address those (and loads of others).

Nick - Gaming Engineering Manager, AMD

Thanks for posting. Impressive that your were able to keep it a secret for two years. :smile:

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to hearing how Mantle will play with Windows Display Driver Model?

 

[Kaotik]

And isn't SteamOS tied to nVidia?

No, it's not.

 

[Priyadarshi]

I am skeptical about the performance gains to be achieved from Mantle. True that the current DX driver stack is deep and adds an overhead but you would only see large gains when it is actually a bottleneck. DX11 already has deferred contexts which allows multiple CPU cores to feed the GPU using display lists.

Also it will probably work only in full-screen mode with no alt+tab support since it will completely bypass WDDM.

 

[3dilettante]

The slides even quoted 20% of what I imagine is a single CPU core for a convolution reverb (which is arguably not even the best bang for the buck algorithm to use, but alas)... that's completely within the realm of reasonable. Modern CPUs can handle *tons* of channels and effects if half decently optimized... just check out some modern DAWs if you don't believe me.

Hey now, maybe that was the percentage for an Intel core. Who knows what that is in Bulldozer terms?

With less snark, but along those lines, this seems like the initial products with this DSP are a proof of concept or an attempt to make a pitch to other customers.
For example, the R9 290X is not likely to be deployed in a system with a shortage of good CPU cores.

However, in terms of a consistent featureset for a whole platform, it might be useful once a full range of products spanning the 100-1 W has a consistent profile.
The more constrained or mobile platforms might be given the incentive to buy into AMD if it means they can get checkbox features that belong to the big boys. Those manufacturers may not be dealing with desktop cores, modern cores, or may not have x86.

This does seem to be a fit for one or more of the consoles, perhaps it's an attempt at monetizing something they passed on?