*spin-off* Ryse Trade-Offs

[Cranky]

I think this is the best way to give a incredibly jarring and downright ugly presentation. People keep talking about doing this but I never hear a dev suggesting it, there must be some reason that others are not seeing that makes it either not worthwhile or hard to implement.

The whole point of the display planes is to render the compositing unnoticable.

Take Alan Wake for example. That game is composited from several different resolution sources and it is one of the best looking games of last gen. In fact, I would hazard a guess that Alan Wake was significant driver in the adding the 3rd display plane.

 

[Betanumerical]

The whole point of the display planes is to render the compositing unnoticable.

Take Alan Wake for example. That game is composited from several different resolution sources and it is one of the best looking games of last gen. In fact, I would hazard a guess that Alan Wake was significant driver in the adding the 3rd display plane.

Yes but compositing a single character at a higher resolution is going to be very jarring compared to some post processing effects which are lower reso, which are are already jarring enough.

 

[Jay]

If that's what Penello and the engineers believe , i'll take whatever they say about bandwidth with a grain of salt .
Anyway , when your tent pole game , your showcase piece cannot meet standards , that's bad news for XB1 .

That's interesting, I know that MS mandated that games on the x360 was meant to be min 720p and that failed from start to finish, but I hadn't heard that they made it a standard that the XB1 needs to be 1080p.
Could you give me a link to that as I would like to see what else they mandated/says is the standard.

99% of gamers just want good looking games, and until now I hadn't heard anyone claim this wasn't, and lots claiming it's the best of the first gen of games they had seen.

What I find more interesting is the fact that KI, and Ryse everyone who had seen them believed they were 1080p, or didn't complain that they looked scaled or anything.
Does the XB1 have a really good inbuilt scalar, or is that just a standard part of the GPU now?

 

[BoardBonobo]

That's interesting, I know that MS mandated that games on the x360 was meant to be min 720p and that failed from start to finish, but I hadn't heard that they made it a standard that the XB1 needs to be 1080p.
Could you give me a link to that as I would like to see what else they mandated/says is the standard.

99% of gamers just want good looking games, and until now I hadn't heard anyone claim this wasn't, and lots claiming it's the best of the first gen of games they had seen.

What I find more interesting is the fact that KI, and Ryse everyone who had seen them believed they were 1080p, or didn't complain that they looked scaled or anything.
Does the XB1 have a really good inbuilt scalar, or is that just a standard part of the GPU now?

I think most were running at 1080p, perhaps the post E3/PAX feedback caused them to dial the resolution back to a sub HD one?

It, ryse, apparently played like a dog at PAX, with unresponsive controls and a very current gen feel. Though that was multiplayer. Hopefully the SP is performing a bit better.

 

[dobwal]

Compositing at different resolution probably could work well. But it would have to be a more complex solution then just rendering the main character at higher resolution.

During heavy action scenes it would make more sense to render the main character at lower resolution. Given that the eyes of the player isn't going to focus on the main character but enemy AIs, who would probably be better candidates for higher resolutions at those times. Compositing targets would have to be scene as well as game dependent. For racing games it might make more sense to render every car and the track at a higher resolution at all times as everything else would be a blur during the race.

The problem comes at screen captures or video as passive observers would readily be able to see any obvious difference in resolutions so then it becomes an issue with the technique's effect on marketing. It would also affect reviews as reviewers objectives as a game player isn't the same as normal gamers.

 

[Shortbread]

Yeah, I don't get the outrage either. The new gen's resolution is going to be a lot higher than the PS360 era, so what exactly is the issue anyway?

Regardless of the XB1 being next generation, board members should have opinion on what was previously announced during E3, up to this point. I think Ryse looks good, though pictures have been doctored and sub resolution render - it still looks good for being an XB1 game.

I believe most people are annoyed with the FUD that was created with Killer Instinct, Ryse and possibly current/future titles being 720p/900p.... rather than what was stated during multiple conferences by Microsoft of the XB1 performing 1080p easily.... which isn't the case for these games. So lets discuss what's going on with Ryse performance issues and resolution reduction...

 

[Johnny Awesome]

The point is that the X1 launch titles on what are apparently incomplete drivers (and kits that are behind Sony...) are amazing looking at lower than 1080p resolution. Just imagine the possibilities as the devs get involved more with the hardware and the X1 kits catch up to Sony's.

 

[Jay]

I had heard that the MP had issues, but I generally consider single and MP as almost different games in general.
Guess because things like fps, etc can be very different between the two.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

I wouldn't call it FUD to discuss the technical merits and steps that a developer has to take to get there game running on a console and what advantages and drawbacks said choices have.

But that's not what is going on here anyway. Just a lot of people who aren't interested in X1 or this game coming in to trash the game. Not exactly a legit approach to this topic IMO.

 

[Tap In]

But that's not what is going on here anyway. Just a lot of people who aren't interested in X1 or this game coming in to trash the game. Not exactly a legit approach to this topic IMO.

Exactly as if there are not going to be some 900p games on the other system

This is all about nothing, people trying to raise negativity toward all that is XBO

 

[Shortbread]

Exactly as if there are not going to be some 900p games on the other system

This is all about nothing, people trying to raise negativity toward all that is XBO

Sorry you feel that way, but that doesn't negate the fact that this site is about technical discussions - so lets talk about Ryse perceived issues.

 

[Tap In]

Sorry you feel that way, but that doesn't negate the fact that this site is about technical discussions - so lets talk about Ryse perceived issues.

yea right

 

[Jay]

Sorry you feel that way, but that doesn't negate the fact that this site is about technical discussions - so lets talk about Ryse perceived issues.

What perceived issues?
Or are you talking about mp?

If you want to discuss 900p fair enough but I don't see that as an issue.
Someone could even argue if they had gone with 1080p, that it would have been wrong as they could drop it to 900p and make it look better as there seemed to be very little benefit in 1080p for this game.

What perceived issues have you seen in 900p in this game, bad scaling, muddy textures?

 

[Shortbread]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-ryse-runs-at-900p

Microsoft has revealed that Xbox One launch title Ryse is not running at native 1080p.

Aaron Greenberg, chief of staff for the Devices and Studios Group, tweeted that the game will actually be running at "900p". Greenberg confirmed 1080p rendering for showpiece title Forza Motorsport 5, but it's already known that Killer Instinct - somewhat surprisingly - has targeted an internal 720p rendering resolution.

Developer sources have also suggested that the 32MB of ESRAM - the fast scratchpad memory for high-speed graphics processing - may favour lower resolution render targets. This is a topic we hope to return to soon with some hard data from on-the-record sources.

Upscaling has come a long way since the current-gen consoles launched in 2005/2006, and we can imagine that developers of both Xbox One and to a lesser extent PS4 titles will employ sub-native framebuffers to hit their performance targets, especially in first-gen games. Given the choice between a consistent gameplay experience at 900p or 1080p with a frame-rate hit, we'd take the smoother performance every time.

 

[KKRT]

900p is disappointing, considering from what we've seen most of the time the game only has a handful of characters, if not one, on the screen that you actually interact with. But I don't think it's too surprising. Many of the shots and trailers looked a little too clean to be true.

What are You talking about? E3 demo had over 50 characters on screen in gameplay. Game is also very tech heavy. The only reason this is disappointing is because Crytek could easily enable 1080p by downscaling settings, but they are stubborn to go all out with tech like with Crysis games, instead of budgeting it accordingly to hardware.
http://i2.minus.com/izO6ZrEEeItQY.png

 

[rokkerkory]

I think it's disappointing however it's a launch game. If 2nd gen games are like this then yeah I'll be disappointed really. Do we really know why the downgrade? Maybe not enough time, seems like the game can use another 3-6 months for fine tuning.

Let's go MS, update those drivers and make system better hurry.

 

[Cranky]

Compositing at different resolution probably could work well. But it would have to be a more complex solution then just rendering the main character at higher resolution.

During heavy action scenes it would make more sense to render the main character at lower resolution. Given that the eyes of the player isn't going to focus on the main character but enemy AIs, who would probably be better candidates for higher resolutions at those times. Compositing targets would have to be scene as well as game dependent. For racing games it might make more sense to render every car and the track at a higher resolution at all times as everything else would be a blur during the race.

The problem comes at screen captures or video as passive observers would readily be able to see any obvious difference in resolutions so then it becomes an issue with the technique's effect on marketing. It would also affect reviews as reviewers objectives as a game player isn't the same as normal gamers.

You have a good point. The main character idea came from Halo 5 rendering the gun and arms at 1080.

The basic concept that I was referencing was native 1080 for UI and the pretty narrow box where the eyes will be focused. That 540p square in the middle is where the eye will be focused. The rest of the screen is going to be peripherial or semiperipherial vision where motion and not resolution is the key attribute.

 

[XpiderMX]

Developer sources have also suggested that the 32MB of ESRAM - the fast scratchpad memory for high-speed graphics processing - may favour lower resolution render targets. This is a topic we hope to return to soon with some hard data from on-the-record sources.

Aren't 32MB enough for 1080p?

 

[kots]

That's interesting, I know that MS mandated that games on the x360 was meant to be min 720p and that failed from start to finish, but I hadn't heard that they made it a standard that the XB1 needs to be 1080p.
Could you give me a link to that as I would like to see what else they mandated/says is the standard.

I don't think they mandated any minimums ... but for a big budget next gen game backed by Microsoft and Crytec's top programmers and still can't get it to 1080p says a lot to me .

 

[RudeCurve]

Anyone noticed that before Greenburg's 1080p tweet everyone praised the graphics regardless of the resolution....then when he corrected himself...somehow it's has suddenly become a significant downgrade metric and bad news?

Really? So in other words if Greenburg hadn't mentioned resolution nothing would have changed people would still have preordered or bought the game without knowing/caring about actual resolution. Seems people are so jaded with their agenda they care more about numbers than what is actually on the screen. I guess those people are going to cancel their preorders now...oh wait they never planned on buying it anyway...

As to hardware power, I'd like to see a racing game that looks next gen running at 1080p 60fps from a competing console. Can someone point me to that game?