How should devs handle ports between consoles? *spawn

Alot of people are not going to want to come forward and say things that could hurt their studios relationship with Microsoft. They are not going to want to be "that guy" responsible for soured relationship. If they were the one responsible for the souring that could hurt their career path in the studio.

Guys like Valves Gabe can say what they want and not fear retribution from a superior.

The bigger problem isn't relations with Microsoft the problem is that they don't want to advertise the fact that the game might be worse on one system and hurt potential sales.
 
It's all relative I find it hard to imagine anything much easier to develop on that PS4, if you can write code for a PC you can write a PS4 game. XB1 has the added complexity of managing EDRAM, so it will be harder without question.
Unless there is some hidden issue, I doubt either box is in the same league of difficult as PS3 was.
 
It's all relative I find it hard to imagine anything much easier to develop on that PS4, if you can write code for a PC you can write a PS4 game. XB1 has the added complexity of managing EDRAM, so it will be harder without question.
Unless there is some hidden issue, I doubt either box is in the same league of difficult as PS3 was.

Then you get into the issue of X360 already having a memory setup like this for a decade. I think people are overestimating the development difficulties as like you said it's not going to be anywhere as bad as PS3.
 
That director is actually developing a game on XOne and PS4 with no obligations to either console...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinji_Mikami

He might have a degree in merchandising but he has a helluva gaming development career under his belt.

I have no doubt the PS4 is easier to develop on but will this make a actual difference down the road? Not really.

I hate to say it but it can't be too easy to develop on with games like Driveclub being delayed a month from launch.

You mistake creative direction with development (coding). What does Driveclub have to do with anything, just more logical fallacies?
 
What is Microsoft going to do to a 3rd party that says they are having a harder time developing on XOne?

"Oh you guys said bad things so you're not allowed to release on our system."

Of course not.

Lots of little things, like how they support 3rd parties currently helping them wrap their heads around XO's new tech, just like how Sony sends out members of I.C.E. to help with PS3/PS4 development.
Might effect how much their titles are featured in cross promotions.
 
You mistake creative direction with development (coding). What does Driveclub have to do with anything, just more logical fallacies?

So you're basically not even going to look at his career history or take into account the fact that he is in charge of the studio and can see first hand the difficulties or power differences by seeing the game himself?

How is it a logical fallacy? It was only a comment of something that might be relevant to the discussion of how easy it really is to develop for the machine.

Lots of little things, like how they support 3rd parties currently helping them wrap their heads around XO's new tech, just like how Sony sends out members of I.C.E. to help with PS3/PS4 development.
Might effect how much their titles are featured in cross promotions.

Actually I think that's backwards, if a developer expressed issues Microsoft would most likely send help to them rather than cut it off.

We already know Microsoft confirmed that one of the devs had bad audio problems and they sent people to fix the problem.

You guys make Microsoft out to be this giant bully ready to step on and bash any dev that gets out of line.


To drive the point down harder:

Inafune: "I don't think there's a major difference between them. If you get down to the tiny details then maybe each is better at one thing than the other, but it doesn't really impact the way you make a game. It's not like PS4 or Xbox One are particularly hard to develop for. Quite the opposite: you can make whatever you want on either one, and that should be enough for anyone."
 
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So you're basically not even going to look at his career history or take into account the fact that he is in charge of the studio and can see first hand the difficulties or power differences by seeing the game himself?

How is it a logical fallacy? It was only a comment of something that might be relevant to the discussion of how easy it really is to develop for the machine.



Actually I think that's backwards, if a developer expressed issues Microsoft would most likely send help to them rather than cut it off.

We already know Microsoft confirmed that one of the devs had bad audio problems and they sent people to fix the problem.

You guys make Microsoft out to be this giant bully ready to step on and bash any dev that gets out of line.

Errr private disclosure, not some twitter post/interview/blog/forumpost would have half the videogame community and 60% of consolenewssites spreading negative PR, at this sensitive time where it would be a PR hit to MS.

Eg: Adam Orth was forced to take a big pay cut and leave his great job as Creative Director at Microsoft after his twitter caused negative PR. In this economic climate + publishers dropping off the map, I'm sure he's not going to land another job as good or as high paying for some time.
 
Errr private disclosure, not some twitter post/interview/blog/forumpost would have half the videogame community and 60% of consolenewssites spreading negative PR, at this sensitive time where it would be a PR hit to MS.

Eg: Adam Orth was forced to take a big pay cut and leave his great job as creative Director at Microsoft after his twitter caused negative PR. I'm sure he's not going to land another job as good as that for some time.

There is a big difference, Adam Orth was a Microsoft employee.

I'll admit that there might be a NDA from talking publicly about it but I doubt developers have stayed quiet in their problems to Microsoft.

Like I quote above though, from a actual dev working on both systems, it is claimed that the Xbox One is not hard to develop for and you can get what you need out of both.
 
Xbone more difficult to dev on compared to PS4? I think it's safe to say, undoubtedly.

Xbone more difficult to dev compared to 360 at this stage in prelaunch? I think it's very likely, given all the articles and feedback we've heard about the system since May. Will it become as easy as the 360 is now? Oh I'm sure it will.. in due time.
 
So you're basically not even going to look at his career history or take into account the fact that he is in charge of the studio and can see first hand the difficulties or power differences by seeing the game himself?

I'm saying the guy is not coding on either machine let alone both, so his translated words on how powerful the machines are hold little merit. He is either speaking second hand, which is fine or he is just doing the typical birds-eye-view-make-everyone-happy-3rd-party type talk. I understand you want his message to be true, but that doesn't make it so.

How is it a logical fallacy? It was only a comment of something that might be relevant to the discussion of how easy it really is to develop for the machine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_single_cause
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

Because it is. You are assuming that if a game is delayed, the system is somehow hard to work with. But you know well there could be many many other valid reasons. Kinect Sports Rivals was delayed, is that "proof" that the system is hard to develop for?
 
as a big believer in the engineering and development of xbox systems, hardware and services... I have to say for the first time I am also wondering if they didn't maybe screw the pooch on this one?


Still going to buy one and see how it unfolds and how their plans, services and games pan out. But man did they make a mess.


If they were going to make a mess like this they may as well have gone more power, no disc drive, full on Digital steambox like machine
 
I'm saying the guy is not coding on either machine let alone both, so his translated words on how powerful the machines are hold little merit. He is either speaking second hand, which is fine or he is just doing the typical birds-eye-view-make-everyone-happy-3rd-party type talk. I understand you want his message to be true, but that doesn't make it so.

I love how you're blowing off the director of a game just because he doesn't share your opinion. If anyone on that teams knows how each version is performing it is him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_single_cause
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

Because it is. You are assuming that if a game is delayed, the system is somehow hard to work with. But you know well there could be many many other valid reasons. Kinect Sports Rivals was delayed, is that "proof" that the system is hard to develop for?

Except I said it as speculation and not a claim, you have to say it is strange for a game that was advertised and shown off like Driveclub to by delayed with a month of release whether or not development issues were the reason.

Kinect Sports Rival's delays could very well be in order to enhance the software for Kinect 2 with the game.

as a big believer in the engineering and development of xbox systems, hardware and services... I have to say for the first time I am also wondering if they didn't maybe screw the pooch on this one?


Still going to buy one and see how it unfolds and how their plans, services and games pan out. But man did they make a mess.


If they were going to make a mess like this they may as well have gone more power, no disc drive, full on Digital steambox like machine

Looking at what they managed to do with RYSE while developing as the Xbox One was still being worked on, I'm not worried.
 
I love how you're blowing off the director of a game just because he doesn't share your opinion. If anyone on that teams knows how each version is performing it is him.

Not at all, you are ignoring or missing my point.

I hate to break it to you, but no major industry person is ever going to say anything controversial. They will never risk pissing off either Sony or MS or breaking NDAs. The best you are get close to honest feedback are leaks or people speaking off the record.


Except I said it as speculation and not a claim, you have to say it is strange for a game that was advertised and shown off like Driveclub to by delayed with a month of release whether or not development issues were the reason.

Kinect Sports Rival's delays could very well be in order to enhance the software for Kinect 2 with the game.

Well that is some mental gymnastics. If you don't see your own fallacies when presented to you, you will never learn. You can lead a horse to water...
 
Building launch games is just hard, it's hard to appreciate how much broken tools and API releases can hurt unless you've been through it.
Everything I heard from 3rd parties (mostly second hand) suggested that Sony's tools and OS releases were better than MS' through much of the early development, but I can tell you they had many many issues during that time. It's "normal".

Drive Club's delay really shouldn't be a surprise, if you look at how little was shown at E3, getting from there to in final test by the end of September while not impossible would have been a herculean effort. Launch games slip, personally I wish every developer were smart enough to hold back titles that need a little more time, but the harsh reality is sometimes dates are more important than quality.
 
Not at all, you are ignoring or missing my point.

I hate to break it to you, but no major industry person is ever going to say anything controversial. They will never risk pissing off either Sony or MS or breaking NDAs. The best you are get close to honest feedback are leaks or people speaking off the record.

So because he is saying something positive it's automatically going to be assumed wrong or a lie?


Well that is some mental gymnastics. If you don't see your own fallacies when presented to you, you will never learn. You can lead a horse to water...

I don't understand how it takes a great amount of "mental gymnastics" to assume that they might need more time to make the new Kinect work better with the game.

It's been pretty apparent that Microsoft has been working very hard to get first impressions with the new Kinect to be as good as they possibly can.
 
I don't understand how it takes a great amount of "mental gymnastics" to assume that they might need more time to make the new Kinect work better with the game.

It's mental gymnastics to claim if MS delays a game it's to make it better, and if Sony delays a game it's because the platform is hard to develop on. You have no knowledge of the actual reasons in either case, but your assumptions are obviously prejudicial.

Just like it's prejudicial to discount the word of one industry luminary with a long and storied career in games development and many contacts, while simultaneously embracing the (translated) words of another whose bona fides are no more impressive.
 
So because he is saying something positive it's automatically going to be assumed wrong or a lie?

No, but he has no reason to embarrass anyone, so he should and did play it safe. He also might not actually know that much about the tech for either platform and is speaking from the manager level he resides in. My direct manager mis-speaks about my work all the time, he is one level removed from it. This guy is probably many more levels removed from the developers.

BTW , you think he is speaking accurately and honestly because you like his message? That's just confirmation bias, counting the hits, ignoring the misses. Anyhow, part of his quote doesn't even make much sense, I suspect something was lost in the translation.

I don't understand how it takes a great amount of "mental gymnastics" to assume that they might need more time to make the new Kinect work better with the game.

It's been pretty apparent that Microsoft has been working very hard to get first impressions with the new Kinect to be as good as they possibly can.

:?:

I didn't say one thing or another about why either game was delayed, I was pointing out your failure in logic. Your original argument doesn't hold water and you continually miss the point.
 
Except I said it as speculation and not a claim, you have to say it is strange for a game that was advertised and shown off like Driveclub to by delayed with a month of release whether or not development issues were the reason.

Kinect Sports Rival's delays could very well be in order to enhance the software for Kinect 2 with the game.
That's something of a double standard. There are many reasons why a game may be delayed. There's nothing about a delay, certainly not just a month, that inherently points to development problems and a difficult system. KSR could be delayed for development woes just as readily as any other title, or to enhance the game just as any other title. I'd only take long delays as indicative of development worries, and even then they can often be managerial (eg. Ryse has taken 7 years and gone through all sorts of changes. Doesn't mean the platform(s) were a nightmare causing that).

I don't understand how it takes a great amount of "mental gymnastics" to assume that they might need more time to make the new Kinect work better with the game.
It takes some mental gymnastics to take a delay as indicative of production woes on PS4 but as evidence that devs are only improving things on XB1. You're interpreting the same evidence in two different ways. That's like looking at two people standing over a dead body and concluding one is guiltily standing over the body as if they've just done it and the other must have just arrived because the guilty person wouldn't hang around to get caught.

Looking at what they managed to do with RYSE while developing as the Xbox One was still being worked on, I'm not worried.
See above. Oh, linky.

So because he is saying something positive it's automatically going to be assumed wrong or a lie?
I shall swallow hard and not reiterate my usual tirade against PR statements. No corporate mouthpiece can be used to gain any real understanding of the console space except in some rare cases. When a corporate identity talks about the consoles, they have their business partnerships and product on the line. Their chief concern is generating interest in their products, and not informing people of the behind-the-scenes industry. There is nothing to be gained from saying, "This machine is much easier to develop on than that machine," but you will annoy your business partners by dissing their platform. That's why we don't have an internet awash with open commentaries, "Sony's PS2 documentation suck. How the hell are we supposed to make a game on this thing?" and, "Goddam, MS's devkit keeps frickin' crashing," and the like. We instead have cosy comments like, "Wii is a very powerful system."

If there is a significant difference between platforms that can mean a notable difference to the end users, PR mouthpieces will either avoid talking about them, or use suitable spin and subjective comments to gloss over the difference.

The only time you'll get real info from devs is off the record, or a very strong character like Gabe Newell who doesn't give a **** what the console companies think of him. This is why we need rumour, which of course can also be made up bunkum.

eg. We've heard on the record from lots of named indies how great PS4 is to develop for. I can state that I know a guy with a PS4 devkit who had trouble getting it up and running because the documentation sucked and it wasn't straight forwards (normally for early console devkits). Now how come the gaming press isn't quoting indies saying how awful the PS4 devkit is to get up and running? Because they don't want to badmouth Sony publicly (especially considering they've been loaned the devkits for free), or because it's unsubstantiated rumour from me and not true.

I'll end on this - everything to do with computer development is a hell of a lot harder than anyone without experience can appreciate! There's no such thing as 'easy' game development. PS4 is definitely going to be the easiest platform to design for, but it may not be the easiest to develop for, depending on tools, libraries, and middleware. If there's a lot of noise saying XB1 is harder to developer for, I'll accept that as possibly true, but as it doesn't affect me in any way, I won't commit to any unsubstantiated belief with any great conviction.
 
It's mental gymnastics to claim if MS delays a game it's to make it better, and if Sony delays a game it's because the platform is hard to develop on. You have no knowledge of the actual reasons in either case, but your assumptions are obviously prejudicial.

Just like it's prejudicial to discount the word of one industry luminary with a long and storied career in games development and many contacts, while simultaneously embracing the (translated) words of another whose bona fides are no more impressive.

That's why it's called speculation, welcome to the concept I hope you appreciate it.

Also I already know why Driveclub is delayed it's because it was only 40% complete at E3(confirmed by devs) and there was no way it was going to be complete by launch.
 
That's why it's called speculation, welcome to the concept I hope you appreciate it.

Also I already know why Driveclub is delayed it's because it was only 40% complete at E3(confirmed by devs) and there was no way it was going to be complete by launch.

No, it's a double standard as Shifty puts it so well above. How complete was Kinect Sports Rivals at E3? How could you possibly know what was done by when and who could accomplish what? You have no earthly idea, so you're just investing your supposition with your personal brand of self delusion.
 
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