XBox One, PS4, DRM, and You

[Xalion]

Well it seems logical because.

A. All Xbox One games are treated as if they are digital copies.
B. Xbox One games can be shared or given away.
C. Therefore Xbox One digital copies can be shared or given away.

I think Microsoft clarified a lot of this here. On the giving games away it is very clear:

Give your games to friends: Xbox One is designed so game publishers can enable you to give your disc-based games to your friends. There are no fees charged as part of these transfers. There are two requirements: you can only give them to people who have been on your friends list for at least 30 days and each game can only be given once.

Notice they specify disc-based games rather than all games and levy two requirements - games can only be given away once and it is only to people who have been your "friend" for a while. Basically, this is to prevent private sales (i.e. you sell it to me and then "give" me your copy online).

Also, it is publisher dependant - although Microsoft specifies for games they publish:

In our role as a game publisher, Microsoft Studios will enable you to give your games to friends or trade in your Xbox One games at participating retailers. Third party publishers may opt in or out of supporting game resale and may set up business terms or transfer fees with retailers.

So basically, a game may only be "given away" once, to a restricted number of people, and it must be approved by the publisher.

Sharing is where it gets more difficult. They state that anyone can play the game on your console. Pretty much the same as PS+ or XBox live digital games right now (e.g. my wife can play all of my digital games under her PS account as long as she is using my machine). Then they have their special "family access". We don't have details to that other than it will allow your entire family to have access to your library.

 

[wco81]

Actually, NHL uses dedicated servers for all OTP matches and EASHL games. They also have a backend that allows you to have persistent players and statistics, plus all of the team functionality that allows you to create and manage teams and compete for monthly trophies in an organized league. On top of that there are all of the web features built around EASHL for team stat pages.

Now you're arguing matchmaking is bad, because it requires data centers, and that somehow developers would be better off setting up those services on their own. Let's hold gaming back forever. The Internet is evil, scary and unstable. Everyone should go back to using direct connections over dialup, because it isn't reliant on the Internet at all.

No, I'm saying you don't need data centers for online games, period.

They chose to set up "gaming networks" so they can bill you.

Most console games have been peer to peer.

Has MS or Sony promised that ALL next-gen games will have dedicated servers?

 

[Cyan]

People that don't have internet will not be buying the One. It won't even be able to complete OOBE without an internet connection. I suspect it will have "Requires a broadband internet connection" right on the box, under "Requires HDMI capable TV or receiver"

Super important point. I hope so, that's a most essential detail, anything less and some people would sue Microsoft.

In that regard -well, probably more related to used games than online stuff- there is a Xbox One protest movement gathering momentum.

I think it is to no avail, Microsoft aren't going to listen. But it exists.

I signed to show my solidarity with others hoping that some members of the community won't leave, although I am not so sure about the DRM issue anymore, I can live -or try to- with it.

http://www.gamerzines.com/xbox/xbox-protest-movement-gathers.html

http://www.xboxshun.com/

While gamers have always enjoyed true ownership of their games, being able to share them with friends, sell them on and play them wherever they are, this is all about to change,” reads a statement on the movement’s website, linked here.
“Microsoft, if unchallenged, is about to lock down games”

 

[wco81]

You don't need a god damn movement or online petitions.

Vote with your wallets. This is about consumerism, not some civil right.

 

[BRiT]

And start by boycotting existing market solutions which actually have worse terms of use such as Apple, Android, and Steam.

 

[Cyan]

A truly hilarious video -thanks for sharing bubukillaxd - comparing the overwhelming reaction of the crowd after CEOs announced both PS4 and X1 prices.

... "tswypswts"

Could anyone make a gif of Phil Spencer holding his hand in the air and clenching his teeth? :smile:

edit: the video has been doctored though.

 

[wco81]

And start by boycotting existing market solutions which actually have worse terms of use such as Apple, Android, and Steam.

How are they worse?

 

[Charybdis]

Its all moot MS will do one of two things

1. Fail and Fail hard because people will refuse to adopt the idea of always online gaming, Looking at games like The Division would you really want to play that by your self? or Destiny, The Crew?
I think the days of playing solo are going to be going the way of the dodo.

2. Be hailed as a stroke of genius. The only way it will work for MS is if the can prove that having a 24/7 online system is a gotta have feature then they paved the way for every generation moving forward.
Nintendo made motion controls a standard feature and now all 3 have it adopted in some way. shoot if XB Live wasnt as successful as it was then do you think Sony would have bothered with PSN?

Its all a game of follow the leader.

 

[AzBat]

Why would you be content with any form of DRM which isn't there to directly service consumers?

Business are motivated no different than you are as an individual. Would my gaining regular access to your home be less disconcerting even if I were using it simply as a shortcut to get to my daily destination? A manufacturer doesn't need proof that piracy is hampering its business, just the thought of someone gaining unauthorized access to the hardware and content is motivation enough whether its malevolent or not.

You maintain locks on your doors do you not? Does those locks inconvenience you, your family and your vistors more than they inconvenience any would be criminal trying to gain access to your home? Maintaining security almost always comes with user inconvenience.

Its not like piracy and hardware hacking is happening on the manufacturer or a publisher side. MS is not hacking the PS3 and throwing its contents on the internet. Its a consumer side driven phenomenon, so like speed limits or door locks we all share in the inconvenience placed on us by some authority because some of us engage in actions that those in authority want to stop. The fact is if there was some magic low cost DRM scheme that didn't inconvenience anyone, yet still stopped every attempt to hack or pirate, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Luckily there is the PS4 for those that find MS's DRM implementation too inconvenient. And thats what it comes down to convenience. If you were oppose to DRM in general you wouldn't game on a console. We all have a different level of tolerance when it comes to inconveniences. MS simply chooses to offer a product to those that have a higher tolerance. There is nothing wrong with doing so.

The discussion will lead to nothing but a circular argument. Because you can't force someone to be tolerant of an undesirable requirement nor can you force someone to take umbrage with a requirement that doesn't bother them.

Well done post, thanks! Thought it needed some more attention.

Tommy McClain

 

[Tap In]

Well done post, thanks! Thought it needed some more attention.

Tommy McClain

agreed thanks for the bump I missed it. well said

 

[Cyan]

You don't need a god damn movement or online petitions.

Vote with your wallets. This is about consumerism, not some civil right.

I can tell you that people are doing that. Some who were once loyal consumers now thinking about leaving the Xbox brand, and some of them feel really sad about it.

And start by boycotting existing market solutions which actually have worse terms of use such as Apple, Android, and Steam.

Yup, the problem is that people's perception and tendencies are unpredictable most of the time.

Even so, I still hope Microsoft can put the European price of the console on the same level of the American price.

500$ does not equal 499€ nor 429£, 500€ and 429£ translates to about 650+$.

They are playing with fire there.

 

[Strange]

Why would you be content with any form of DRM which isn't there to directly service consumers?

Business are motivated no different than you are as an individual. Would my gaining regular access to your home be less disconcerting even if I were using it simply as a shortcut to get to my daily destination? A manufacturer doesn't need proof that piracy is hampering its business, just the thought of someone gaining unauthorized access to the hardware and content is motivation enough whether its malevolent or not.

You maintain locks on your doors do you not? Does those locks inconvenience you, your family and your vistors more than they inconvenience any would be criminal trying to gain access to your home? Maintaining security almost always comes with user inconvenience.

Its not like piracy and hardware hacking is happening on the manufacturer or a publisher side. MS is not hacking the PS3 and throwing its contents on the internet. Its a consumer side driven phenomenon, so like speed limits or door locks we all share in the inconvenience placed on us by some authority because some of us engage in actions that those in authority want to stop. The fact is if there was some magic low cost DRM scheme that didn't inconvenience anyone, yet still stopped every attempt to hack or pirate, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Luckily there is the PS4 for those that find MS's DRM implementation too inconvenient. And thats what it comes down to convenience. If you were oppose to DRM in general you wouldn't game on a console. We all have a different level of tolerance when it comes to inconveniences. MS simply chooses to offer a product to those that have a higher tolerance. There is nothing wrong with doing so.

The discussion will lead to nothing but a circular argument. Because you can't force someone to be tolerant of an undesirable requirement nor can you force someone to take umbrage with a requirement that doesn't bother them.

I have a feeling that we're doing the same here as trying to convince people that we don't need the government to pass a law that requires women to wear burkas.

Ya, muslims will be perfectly fine with the law, but everybody else is raging about the fact that our rights have been compromised but certain people still don't see the rights infringement that is at the core of the issue and say "but I'm fine with it, and it's not as if you can't buy burkas".

Just because you're fine with them imposing DRM doesn't invalidate the fact that it's anti-consumerism.

 

[Kb-Smoker]

LOL this has NOTHING to do with hacking or piracy.... wow

If anything this will encourage hacking even more.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Yes, PSN pass which is Sony's own online pass system. But if you are not going to dictate a used game policy to pubs then there is nothing to stop them from rolling their own.

Scott Rohde told Giant Bomb in an interview the only real policy change between PS3 and PS4 is that publishers are specifically disallowed from charging for online passes. From Sony's perspective if you are already paying for multiplayer through PS+ than publishers shouldn't be allowed to charge you a second time for the same thing. A refreshing change from Microsoft's logic-defying policies concerning Gold.

How would the online only portion of the Xbox One vs PS4 work?

Xbox One:

*Can share games with family/up to 10 'devices?' (different cities?) --Only 2 Concurrent
*Can give away games. --WRONG
*Disc/Online versions identical --What does this even mean?
*Must authenticate every 24/1 hour

PS4:

*Can share with up to 3 devices? (IIRC) --Not Currently Specified
*Can't give away games.
Online version different to retail. --What does this even mean?
*No online authentication.

If we're trending towards digitial only anyway then surely the Xbox One's policies are more friendly?

I've underlined the only meaningful difference I see, after corrections.

 

[MrFloopy]

I have a feeling that we're doing the same here as trying to convince people that we don't need the government to pass a law that requires women to wear burkas.

Ya, muslims will be perfectly fine with the law, but everybody else is raging about the fact that our rights have been compromised but certain people still don't see the rights infringement that is at the core of the issue and say "but I'm fine with it, and it's not as if you can't buy burkas".

Just because you're fine with them imposing DRM doesn't invalidate the fact that it's anti-consumerism.

Oh, lord. I think this thread is about to Godwin.

 

[Strange]

Oh, lord. I think this thread is about to Godwin.

I have enough faith, no scratch that, trust in these forums that it won't turn out like that.

 

[Strange]

Scott Rohde told Giant Bomb in an interview the only real policy change between PS3 and PS4 is that publishers are specifically disallowed from charging for online passes. From Sony's perspective if you are already paying for multiplayer through PS+ than publishers shouldn't be allowed to charge you a second time for the same thing. A refreshing change from Microsoft's logic-defying policies concerning Gold.

This is nice to hear, makes sense and seems to be a bit better than status quo for us consumers.

 

[bkilian]

Sony gave us everything we asked for. The big cheer at E3 was warranted.

I'm a collector, I own about 500 blurays/dvds, a hundred books. I bought roughly 200 console games and resold maybe 50 of those (didn't like, or didn't consider them of value). Just like my books and films, my games would have no value if I didn't have ownership, control, and longevity.

It's very simple. Sony protected that value. Microsoft didn't.

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. We just got rid of every DVD, HDDVD, and blu-ray that is not a movie we want to watch multiple times. Some years ago, we sold all our paper based books, except for a few that I could not get digitally. What's the point of having things in your house that are just going to collect dust?

 

[Kb-Smoker]

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. We just got rid of every DVD, HDDVD, and blu-ray that is not a movie we want to watch multiple times. Some years ago, we sold all our paper based books, except for a few that I could not get digitally. What's the point of having things in your house that are just going to collect dust?

So if those were xbone games that were collecting dust.... jokes just write itself....

Good thing the DRM didnt stop you from selling those items or they still would be collecting dust.

 

[MrFloopy]

I have enough faith, no scratch that, trust in these forums that it won't turn out like that.

I would certainly hope so.