Business Approach Comparison Sony PS4 and Microsoft Xbox

[dobwal]

No you either have comprehension issues or you are pretending you understood something else.

No you have a problem with elucidating a point while derailing your own arguments.

If you want to have to an honest debate about the value of Kinect then lets look at all the features that are offered by the device as well as the implementations of those features.

You don't have to value Kinect the way I do. You can think the device and all its features are practically useless. I won't argue with you on that point as thats your opinion. But you don't pay $100 extra just to use VC to launch apps or plays in 2K. You can, but thats not what the extra $100 only gives you.

 

[Nesh]

No you have a problem with elucidating a point while derailing your own arguments.

If you want to have to an honest debate about the value of Kinect then lets look at all the features that are offered by the device as well as the implementations of those features.

You don't have to value Kinect the way I do. But you don't pay $100 extra just to use VC to launch apps or plays in 2K.

You see derailment because you didnt get what was said to you from the very beginning therefore you cant make the connection.

Voice Commands to launch games and apps its Kinects most popular feature and the one most talked about. Also you continue to omit the part where it was pointed to you numerous times that not all its features are valued by everyone and therefore the $100 price is not justified for them. So of course these people are NOT willing to pay the additional price even if it offers those "plethora" of features.

Secondly I implied NOTHING about product popularity in my post above. That was your own assumption coming most likely from your lack of comprehension. What was pointed to you is that the WiiU doesnt sell because its a bad product that is indeed priced too high. Thats why it doesnt do well. You even tried to create an analogy with the PS4's track pad which doesnt exist since it doesnt increase the console's price and is not used as a feature to excuse the PS4's "expensive" price. Unlike the Kinect in XB1.

And about the other option being the PS4? Yes exactly. You actually made my point as well as everyone else's that were disagreeing with you about the value of the Kinect. On the PS4 you have the option to buy with or without camera. On the XB1 you dont. So the other only option if you dont want the Kinect with your XB1 is to buy a PS4

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Kinect is so much more than what you suggest.

 

[Nesh]

Kinect is so much more than what you suggest.

I suggested nothing, Yes it is so much more. Which dont necessarily appeal to everyone at the price.

 

[dobwal]

You see derailment because you didnt get what was said to you from the very beginning therefore you cant make the connection.

Voice Commands to launch games and apps its Kinects most popular feature and the one most talked about. Also you continue to omit the part where it was pointed to you numerous times that not all its features are valued by everyone and therefore the $100 price is not justified for them. So of course these people are NOT willing to pay the additional price even if it offers those "plethora" of features.

From you. "As far as I know the PS4 can also launch games via voice commands and use voice commands in NBA 2k. And that doesnt require a kinect or a mandatory camera that costs $100 extra"

I see derailment because you intially treat it as if thats all Kinect does and the commence to constantly go off on tangents. Your argument was that those two specific features can be had by the PS4 without a camera or a premium. All while ignoring that $100 buys you more than those two features and that the implementations are different.

Now you trying to extend to VC as a whole. But the totality of XB1 VC functionality cannot be replicated on the PS4. There is not 100% VC feature overlap between the two devices.

I didn't omit anything. I not making a case against anyone's individual taste.

Secondly I implied NOTHING about product popularity in my post above.

The WiiU as you can see is problematic as a product altogether price wise and feature wise. People dont buy it.

Thats what I was referencing.

The whole point of my argument is you can't contribute the premium asked by MS on just the two little features you highlighted thats possible on the PS4.

 

[Nesh]

From you. "As far as I know the PS4 can also launch games via voice commands and use voice commands in NBA 2k. And that doesnt require a kinect or a mandatory camera that costs $100 extra"

I see derailment because you treat it as if thats all Kinect does. Your argument was that those two specific features can be had by the PS4.

"Treating it as thats all kinect does" was simply your own assumption.

Now you trying to extend to VC as a whole. But the totality of XB1 VC functionality cannot be replicated on the PS4. There is not 100% VC feature overlap between the two devices.

See how you missed the point? Let me explain.
The totality of VC functionality is irrelevant for many of us. Being able to launch apps and games via VC are adequate for many and is there for free. Those VC will be expanded further. VC do not require a camera. Any additional features that may require a camera are an option. Not forced to the consumer.. In addition VC in games is nothing new and unique to Kinect 2. The NBA 2K example was brought because you used it first as an example to explain what you liked about Kinect 2. Therefore I used it again as an example to show that VC in games dont require a camera on the PS4 and the feature is there.

Thats what I was referencing.

The whole point of my argument is you can't contribute the premium asked by MS on just the two little features you highlighted thats possible on the PS4.

Let me explain again in fool proof mode:
MS has a price tag of $100 of Kinect that does "10" things.
Out of those "10" things if people use mostly the "3" and consider those "3" as the most important they dont care about paying $100.

 

[blakjedi]

"Treating it as thats all kinect does" was simply your own assumption.

See how you missed the point? Let me explain.
The totality of VC functionality is irrelevant for many of us. Being able to launch apps and games via VC are adequate for many and is there for free. Those VC will be expanded further and do not require a camera. Any additional features that may require a camera are an option. Not forced to the consumer.. In addition VC in games is nothing new and unique to Kinect 2. The NBA 2K example was brought because you used it first as an example to explain what you liked about Kinect 2. Therefore I used it again as an example to show that VC in games dont require a camera on the PS4.



Let me explain again in fool proof mode:
MS has a price tag of $100 of Kinect that does "10" things.
Out of those "10" things if people use mostly the "3" and consider those "3" as the most important they dont care about paying $100.

This argument is used for the most part by people who have either never used the Kinect 2 and/or people who would not be inclined to support the console regardless of its feature set.

The same or similar features on their console of choice would always be discussed as being beneficial and indicative of that company being innovative.

 

[Sonic]

I see the value in Kinect, I like it I really do. I think once more people use it they will end up liking it especially if MS improves upon it in the future. I also see how others do not see the value in it. For them the features they would use from Kinect aren't worth the extra $100 they'd have to spend. Some are willing to buy an Xbox1 at a lower price without Kinect. The question I have is are those same people willing to buy an Xbox1 at a lower price as the console is now? Will some consumers buy Xbox1 at its current price if a game comes out that uses Kinect in a very compelling way?

Kinect is the primary reason why the Xbox1 is more expensive than PS4. It's only natural for many to find more value in a less expensive, more powerful console versus a more expensive, weaker one. And that's not due to wanting one company to succeed or not, it's just the way it is. It's hard to justify getting an Xbox1 right now since PS4 looks like a better deal for a lot of consumers, with or without Kinect. Once the price comes down and if MS is able to achieve parity with Sony in terms of said price then value proposition of Kinect gets a lot better and that could be the justifying factor to get Bone over PS4.

 

[blakjedi]

Sonic agreed. If MS priced at parity with Sony we would really be having a discussion. I have always stated that more than features price would be most peoples deciding factor. Oddly enough the constant citations of bubble pricing on eBay works against the pricing argument people have. The Xbox one is actually worth 499 but it should never have been priced that high. A PS4 isn't worth 499 and Sony priced their system accordingly acknowledging that fact. People buying it for more than that are actually irrational actors.

 

[mrcorbo]

Sonic agreed. If MS priced at parity with Sony we would really be having a discussion. I have always stated that more than features price would be most peoples deciding factor. Oddly enough the constant citations of bubble pricing on eBay works against the pricing argument people have. The Xbox one is actually worth 499 but it should never have been priced that high. A PS4 isn't worth 499 and Sony priced their system accordingly acknowledging that fact. People buying it for more than that are actually irrational actors.

That's an interesting interpretation. To me the $399 price announcement was the uppercut finisher following their opening "more powerful system + same old DRM model" combo at E3 and hardly an indication of them perceiving they were offering less value.

 

[dobwal]

"Treating it as thats all kinect does" was simply your own assumption.

If I am mistaken then I apologize.

See how you missed the point? Let me explain.
The totality of VC functionality is irrelevant for many of us. Being able to launch apps and games via VC are adequate for many and is there for free. Those VC will be expanded further. VC do not require a camera. Any additional features that may require a camera are an option. Not forced to the consumer.. In addition VC in games is nothing new and unique to Kinect 2. The NBA 2K example was brought because you used it first as an example to explain what you liked about Kinect 2. Therefore I used it again as an example to show that VC in games dont require a camera on the PS4 and the feature is there.

I'm am not arguing against the value you, anyone else or the market in generalplaces on Kinect. I dont think you are being disingenious nor do I pretend that I understand the market as a whole so that why I never made any retorts on your value based comments.

The mic and camera are intergrated together because it makes sense if the camera is standard. The whole point of MS VC is not to encumber anyone with a control device. On the PS4 the VC is limited to the ps4 itself. But the ideal of multiple people all sitting in front of the TV with headsets in an effort to control that device probably appeals to no one.

You wouldnt want to intergrated the mic into the console itself because that restrict the console placement which would only make the xb1 size more problematic.

Let me explain again in fool proof mode:
MS has a price tag of $100 of Kinect that does "10" things.
Out of those "10" things if people use mostly the "3" and consider those "3" as the most important they dont care about paying $100.

That not foolproof mode. How one values the most marketed features will influence their willingness to incur the price premium. But actual usage and functionality extends beyond the most marketed feature set. That would only be evident to Xb1 users (hence why I find some of your assertions so disagreeable). And 10 "things" would encompass categories instead of specific functions.

Auto login means not only do I not have to manually log in, it works in conjunction with the parental control features. Meaning when I walk away my son can't take advantage of the always on nature of the device and the times where I might forget to log out. It automatically logs him in and restrict access to content on both the console and TV to the settings I designate for him.

Auto login also means the you can personalize your channel guide settings to your hearts content and making use of your personalized settings never requires picking up a controller for access. I personally only bother with HD channels while my wife and son only remove the SD channels with HD duplicates.

So when you frame the $100 premium around two specific functions, I will readily disagree.

 

[mrcorbo]

I see the value in Kinect, I like it I really do. I think once more people use it they will end up liking it especially if MS improves upon it in the future. I also see how others do not see the value in it. For them the features they would use from Kinect aren't worth the extra $100 they'd have to spend. Some are willing to buy an Xbox1 at a lower price without Kinect. The question I have is are those same people willing to buy an Xbox1 at a lower price as the console is now? Will some consumers buy Xbox1 at its current price if a game comes out that uses Kinect in a very compelling way?

Kinect is the primary reason why the Xbox1 is more expensive than PS4. It's only natural for many to find more value in a less expensive, more powerful console versus a more expensive, weaker one. And that's not due to wanting one company to succeed or not, it's just the way it is. It's hard to justify getting an Xbox1 right now since PS4 looks like a better deal for a lot of consumers, with or without Kinect. Once the price comes down and if MS is able to achieve parity with Sony in terms of said price then value proposition of Kinect gets a lot better and that could be the justifying factor to get Bone over PS4.

This is my thinking as well. At price-parity the value of XBOne vs PS4 becomes a more complicated question whereas now better specs for less money is pretty hard to overcome.

 

[blakjedi]

That's an interesting interpretation. To me the $399 price announcement was the uppercut finisher following their opening "more powerful system + same old DRM model" combo at E3 and hardly an indication of them perceiving they were offering less value.

No not less value which is a relative determination.. But rather value only equal to 399. It was a finisher move for sure but really it played to an already decided crowd. I found nearly all of the issues related to that time period to be manufactured, anti-MS on the part of the blogosphere and forums... For example I detest having to install a game to hdd, yet still needing the disk to play the game, both on my home console and on my friend's consoles.

I want to login and have Kinect recognize me and provide my "stuff" anywhere I am. So much angst from people who were never likely to use or purchase the system is quite childish.

 

[-tkf-]

Kinect is so much more than what you suggest.

The idea Microsoft has, the vision is that much more, but don't you agree that there is requirments to be fulfilled before that vision comes true. For ever requirement that isn't met the vision and the "much more" shrinks.

It starts with HDMI IN, without a TV signal everything related to the TV vision goes away.

VC control, that is a given, but it has to work, based on our established members that one seems to be in the bag to such an extent that we can say that works.
Gesture control, that one is still up in the air?

Games that supports Kinect, the most important part imho, with a Kinect in every box i would expect and do expect to see some very high profile big budget games supporting the Kinect in a Unique way that isn't possible to copy on the PS4. IF the functionality is copied to the PS4 version with a PS4 Camera it does not count and imho at least makes it less interesting.

Embracing a console as a center of your entertainment setup, aka the "wife acceptance factor".

And finally console games.

If all the requirements are met it's easy to understand why people would find the XB1 awesome, but i think it's fair to point out the cases where some of these features simply isn't an option or the competition is doing the same.

 

[mrcorbo]

No not less value which is a relative determination.. But rather value only equal to 399. It was a finisher move for sure but really it played to an already decided crowd. I found nearly all of the issues related to that time period to be manufactured, anti-MS on the part of the blogosphere and forums... For example I detest having to install a game to hdd, yet still needing the disk to play the game, both on my home console and on my friend's consoles.

I want to login and have Kinect recognize me and provide my "stuff" anywhere I am. So much angst from people who were never likely to use or purchase the system is quite childish.

While it is without question that many a console warrior worked hard to fan the flames it was Microsoft who laid the fire. They should have anticipated the concerns that were going to be voiced and had answers ready. Instead they were largely silent as the backlash escalated and what responses they did give were all over the map and often just provided more fuel to the fire.

They needed to work to sell the XBOne to the public, while the PS4 pretty much sold itself. To me, this says an awful lot about those two products.

 

[zupallinere]

While it is without question that many a console warrior worked hard to fan the flames it was Microsoft who laid the fire. They should have anticipated the concerns that were going to be voiced and had answers ready. Instead they were largely silent as the backlash escalated and what responses they did give were all over the map and often just provided more fuel to the fire.

They needed to work to sell the XBOne to the public, while the PS4 pretty much sold itself. To me, this says an awful lot about those two products.

Another way to say it is selling the XB1 to a subset of xbox fans is easy selling to the rest of the xbox fanbase is a bit tougher and the general public, which based on their feature set is the primary focus of the thing, harder still.

MS gets kudos for throwing some weight behind some interesting ideas and tech and that ain't nothin'. I also think they won't bother with a kinect free sku until Xmas next year at the earliest but I could also seem them waiting till later in '15 or never.

 

[zupallinere]

I want to login and have Kinect recognize me and provide my "stuff" anywhere I am. So much angst from people who were never likely to use or purchase the system is quite childish.

Well a cell phone app could log you in automatically with the PS4 without a camera, if Sony decided it was worth it. The new wearable trend adds to the chances you will have something that identifies you as you with you. With a PS camera the same functionality can be done.

Angst from folks who aren't likely to purchase at the present price point is a valid concern and not exactly childish.

 

[blakjedi]

Angst from folks who aren't likely to purchase at the present price point is a valid concern and not exactly childish.

Only if you think the leader of a vocal minority speaks for the "silent majority."

As an owner of one system and not another at the current time, I dont walk around advocating AGAINST the PS4 with some level of indignation, surety and pride.

If someone says they like Xbox One and the Kinect, all I read are people who tell them they are stupid or some conjure up some alternate contrived mechanism (use your phone!, my fit bit could do the same thing if they programmed it to do so!) to "prove" that it is nothing special.. Is all that really necessary?

As it stands now, of all the released systems to the public, only the Kinect currently does what it does, at the level that it does it, in a pretty system-wide fashion where I know its always there and available.

PS4 fans across the web spend more time trying to convince others that the Kinect and thus the Xbox One is "not worth it." Yet people who come to use it, without any preconceived notions about teraflops, shaders, or any other "stuff" pretty much like the system and see very few problems with the implementation and the system itself.

 

[-tkf-]

Only if you think the leader of a vocal minority speaks for the "silent majority."

As an owner of one system and not another at the current time, I dont walk around advocating AGAINST the PS4 with some level of indignation, surety and pride.

If someone says they like Xbox One and the Kinect, all I read are people who tell them they are stupid or some conjure up some alternate contrived mechanism (use your phone!, my fit bit could do the same thing if they programmed it to do so!) to "prove" that it is nothing special.. Is all that really necessary?

As it stands now, of all the released systems to the public, only the Kinect currently does what it does, at the level that it does it, in a pretty system-wide fashion where I know its always there and available.

PS4 fans across the web spend more time trying to convince others that the Kinect and thus the Xbox One is "not worth it." Yet people who come to use it, without any preconceived notions about teraflops, shaders, or any other "stuff" pretty much like the system and see very few problems with the implementation and the system itself.

Why don't you argue against the strategy that Sony decided upon if you think it's wrong? No reason to be quiet about it. Nothing has been decided yet, you only risk being wrong or right

Do you think that Microsoft changed their complete business strategy on DRM, ownership etc based on forum trolls and PS4 fans? I am convinced it was the only way to save their future console from going down in flames and the obviously woke up from whatever made up world they were sleeping in.
And the question of Always On Drm wasn't centered around just the XB1, it was slippery slope that had every chance to spill over to the rest of our consoles and PC. There was a real threat to the basic right to own something you buy. So there was actually nothing stopping every gamer in the world from protesting against that, even though they never had the intent to buy the XB1.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Do you think that Microsoft changed their complete business strategy on DRM, ownership etc based on forum trolls and PS4 fans?

I must admit this one really has me wanting to bang my head against a brick wall. If Microsoft, as a company, are willing to undertake a policy reversal of that magnitude, based on a few idiot fanboys, then the company are absolutely doomed. The days the trolls dictate policy, you are on a downward spiral.

I don't believe this for a second; for such an upheaval of the original product vision, Microsoft must have had overwhelmingly bad feedback from the internet (a given), the press (a given) and probably pre-order numbers from retailers - the reversal occurred a week after E3 so many places had pre-orders up and running for over a month at that point. E3 2013 itself was a venue where Sony were venerated, not for being Sony or doing something new or interesting, but because they weren't doing what Microsoft were proposing to do.

Every time I see somebody "blame the internet" for the reversal, I just want to scream how is it Microsoft are so smart as to have devised the original Xbox One vision you loved but so stupid as to be tricked by a few fan boys? How!?! It's not like Microsoft are new to this business, they've been around since the 70s.