Doom 4 languishing in development hell; id internal management a shambles

Grall

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Kotaku has a pretty long write-up of what's going on with a game that has been actively worked on for six years now and with nothing to show for it so far. Like the much ridiculed Duke4E, they've rebooted the game twice already and thrown out lots of work already done. Mismanagement in the company's been rife accoring to unnamed sources, with the company heads alledgedly neglecting doom in favor of getting Rage over and done with, causing quality to suffer. Now zenimax is quickly running low of patience and is levelling increasingly dire threats at id, as staff are defecting from the company or getting fired in a steady stream.

Read it and weep:
http://kotaku.com/five-years-and-nothing-to-show-how-doom-4-got-off-trac-468097062
 
id Tech 5 is being used for multiple Zenimax projects. That's interesting.

I think they've been having major organizational issues since after Doom 3.
 
And Doom 3 demonstrated that id Software had talent issues on the design side of game development. If I were Zenimax I'd either restructure it as a purely tech team or just shut it down.
 
Whatever there are always dire things going on when you read articles like this sourced from people who don't work there anymore. We will see what the end product is.

“The coolest part... were the horror and shock elements, unfortunately bookended by somewhat pointless and contrived shooting galleries of hoards of uninteresting enemies.”

Great so we lose our hordes of enemies so it can be just like any other boring shooter that I would not bother to play...

Zenimax would be stupid to just shut it down I think, but if they want to that is fine they bought it after all. It actually sounded to me from the article that zenimax's intrusion was counter productive after the first reboot. I liked the idea of people sitting around and coming up with cool ideas instead the management of zenimax coming in and saying it needs to be more scripted.
 
They should of given it to raven software they have always made better use of id tech than id
ps: get Clive Barker to write the story
 
Doom3 and Rage also took way too long to come out after their announcements. Doom 3 was supposed to precede Half Life 2 by more than a year, IIRC.

Carmack said at some point that id was trying to solve their problems with long development times but I guess that failed too.

To be honest, apart from their historical prowess from the 90s, I don't really enjoy any of their latest games.
 
The funny part is so many people who don't enjoy their games seem really interested in their business. No one forces you to buy their games so it seems like it is not a problem if they are not your cup of tea. And Raven has seriously gone down hill as well. How did Wolf do under Raven's tutelage? People want their FPS games to be movies and I personally don't understand why. We already have many movies.
 
And Doom 3 demonstrated that id Software had talent issues on the design side of game development. If I were Zenimax I'd either restructure it as a purely tech team or just shut it down.
I totally agree. As a *game* dev, they are sliding further and further down the slope towards the pit of irrelevance.
 
Let´s wait till next QuakeCon´s Carmak speech. The guy is always pretty open at those, and he has confidently talked about their managing strugles during Doom 3 and Rage before, so he will probably talk about this stuff now, specially now that it´s on the news and all. It would be very interesting to see his point of view on all that. I hope some PR person doesn´t come and stops him from doing that this time around, but I don´t think that´s very likely anyway.
 
Let´s wait till next QuakeCon´s Carmak speech. The guy is always pretty open at those, and he has confidently talked about their managing strugles during Doom 3 and Rage before, so he will probably talk about this stuff now, specially now that it´s on the news and all. It would be very interesting to see his point of view on all that. I hope some PR person doesn´t come and stops him from doing that this time around, but I don´t think that´s very likely anyway.

That was when he co-owned ID. Now, Zenimax owns the company, I doubt Carmack is free to be as candid as he used to be.
 
I totally agree.

I totally disagree. I also think D3 already had mismanagement problems back then: the game was delayed 6 months putting it right between Far Cry and HL 2, they had schedulling issues with Trent Reznor, last minute changes to the shotgun, the final game had very little gameplay or assets from what was shown at E3 2002 (the leaked alpha), etc. Their management problems only increased as they decided to grow their teams. Then they worked on that Darkness game for 1.5 years only to cancel it and go for Rage all the while having to supervise Raven with Quake 4 in 2002-2005 and then Wolfenstein in 2006-2009, help out Splash Damage with ETQW in 2005-2007, coordinate the various companies doing the ETQW/Wolfenstein console ports which also suffered from management problems themselves, mess around with Quake Live, mobile games, rockets and God knows what else.

That Kotaku article finds me... impassive. I don't know if the specific anecdotes are true, exagerated or whatever but the overall storyline of DOOM's development matches exactly the same problems we've been witnessing from the outside for the last 10 years. In fact, for the last 13 years as DOOM 3 was announced back in March 2000 as a neccessity as Paul Steed was fired because he wanted to do a new DOOM while two of the owners Adrian Carmack and Kevin Cloud did not. Romero's firing after Quake's release also spawned from fundamental business practice differences (not just Romero being a lazy bastard who wanted to DM all day instead of designing levels like he was supposed to). You could probably even go back and find even more management problems.

If you have a small team, management issues may hinder but usually will not bring down a project. That's no longer true with bigger teams, longer projects or multiple companies and especially not when you have amateur managers (artists, level designers, programmers who were promoted to managers - experience does not always replace knowledge).

Aside from management issues, there's also the remarkable trend that culminated in this 2011 DOOM reboot. After DOOM 3, id decided to focus more on the console versions where Quake 4 had a piss poor, buggy and slow xbox 360 simultaneous release and Rage was basically a console game ported to the PC. This trend correlates almost directly to the sales numbers of each game.

The more Carmack got on a pulpit extoling the virtues of multiplatform development and how companies HAD to focus on consoles if they wanted to turn a profit, every new game either developed or supervised by id that was more and more console focused sold less and less than the game before it. I do believe Rage sold more than Wolfenstein (2009) but pretty much any other game would, let's be honest.

Maybe id could take a few cues from DICE which had a resounding critical and commercial success with BF3 despite the fact DICE constantly said the PC was the lead dev platform, how they honestly and openly said the PC version would be better than the console versions (graphics and gameplay features -wise) and still managed to sell quite alot of copies on all platforms, going directly up ahead with the behemoth of the industry releasing nearly at the same time as the CoD of the year.

Compare that to DOOM 3: BFG edition where the PC version doesn't even have uncompressed textures like the original PC DOOM 3 had 9 years ago!

id has to fix its management issues and you do that starting at the top, not shuffling people around teams. Who did the shuffling? The same amateur managers who shipwrecked multiple projects already?
 
Whatever there are always dire things going on when you read articles like this sourced from people who don't work there anymore. We will see what the end product is.

Let me touch on this, let's ignore, for argument's sake, the specific quotes in the article which no doubt come from fired employees. The events described in this article still map exactly to what we've heard before. After Rage there was a flurry of rumours about DOOM being cancelled because Bethesda wasn't happy with Rage's sales and even Bethesda had to comment saying it wasn't cancelled, then those layoffs. I can certainly believe the part of the article that says Bethesda told id they couldn't manage multiple projects simultaneously, that they had had multiple chances to get it right. In fact, I don't think Bethesda was angry at how crappy the DOOM game was turning out to be. I think they forced id to change because it took so long for Carmack & co. to notice how crappy the DOOM game was turning out to be.

If your company leadership is not aware 50% of the company is producing crap for years. You may only have 50% talented workforce but you certainly have 0% talented managers.

It actually sounded to me from the article that zenimax's intrusion was counter productive after the first reboot. I liked the idea of people sitting around and coming up with cool ideas instead the management of zenimax coming in and saying it needs to be more scripted.

That's not the impression I got. I think the article is saying after Rage shipped Bethesda wanted to see how DOOM was doing so they asked id's leadership for a demo or something. That's when Carmack & co realised what the DOOM team had produced. I think that's why Bethesda intervened. From the article it also seems the DOOM reboot was managed by id themselves, with Bethesda only requiring the company focus on a single game at a time having blown multiple chances to get multiple projects right.

It seems a few months after the reboot, with Bethesda satisfied with the changes and going back to focus on Fallout 4 and TES6, id management relapsed into bad habbits and general lack of good management practices. From the article it seems that's where the project is now.
 
That's not the impression I got. I think the article is saying after Rage shipped Bethesda wanted to see how DOOM was doing so they asked id's leadership for a demo or something. That's when Carmack & co realised what the DOOM team had produced. I think that's why Bethesda intervened. From the article it also seems the DOOM reboot was managed by id themselves, with Bethesda only requiring the company focus on a single game at a time having blown multiple chances to get multiple projects right.

It seems a few months after the reboot, with Bethesda satisfied with the changes and going back to focus on Fallout 4 and TES6, id management relapsed into bad habbits and general lack of good management practices. From the article it seems that's where the project is now.

Hmm that wasn't what I got from reading it.

I got that there was one reboot and it was more interesting.

Then Zenimax stepped in and said follow the formula noobs. Who knows though. They should probably follow the formula though. They would sell more even if not to me.
 
Great so we lose our hordes of enemies so it can be just like any other boring shooter that I would not bother to play...

I agree with you but the way it was written it felt like the "shooting gallery" as they call it was crap :???:
We probably want something between Serious Sam and Painkiller but is it that likely..

Anyway I'm going to play 1_6tron.wad again. On the fourth or filth level it has you fight against a pack of 200 imps or so and the music is set to a midi version of Metallica "and nothing else matters" :)
I've launched the synthesizer, and made myself a "doom" directory at the root of my data drive, with the main wads in it (doom.wad, doom2.wad etc.) as well as a "wad" sub-directory.
 
Competent managers are really hard to find, as are great creative directors. Both those roles require intuition that can't be taught. Id strikes me as a company that lacks in both those capacities. They have great technology people, and maybe great artists, but lack in people that understand what makes a good game, and people that can see the big picture to make sure all of the pieces are falling into place. I've rarely encountered good managers in my life, and I've been exposed to a lot of them. I'd be really sad to see the company fall apart, but gaming is huge business now and being smart and running like a 90s startup is not good enough to get by anymore. I'd love to see Carmack keep working on tech for another decade.
 
I agree with you but the way it was written it felt like the "shooting gallery" as they call it was crap :???:
We probably want something between Serious Sam and Painkiller but is it that likely..

I bet those same people would say Painkiller was crap. Painkiller was just an assortment of random stuff with some hand waving about the afterlife to tie it together. What made it fun was the weapons and the feeling of crazy amounts of damage inflicted. The art work was nice, but once again it was simply a hodgepodge of disconnected styles with the handwaving to explain it. Personally I found the boss battles boring in comparison to most of the rest as well. Except the very last one just b/c it had such fun art.
 
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