*spin-off* Always on/connected... stuff

[Scott_Arm]

I love this thread. Xbox Live has now been compared to telecom and electricity. No. Just no. Your Xbox Live service shouldn't be relied upon to heat your home or power your fridge and freezer. Your Xbox Live service shouldn't be used to contact emergency services in case of intruders, illness, fire etc.

Buying an Xbox has also been compared to obeying the law in a way that I cannot comprehend. No you cannot choose which laws to obey without repercussion in whatever country you live in. What does that have to do with an entertainment box.

We're talking about gaming. You have different options. If you don't like one, don't buy it. Don't get mad that you can't use the product that's made with pervasive online services in mind, in an offline mode, especially when you don't know how much it costs, what it does, how it works, what it's named, what it looks like ...

Guys, I'm really mad that that thing that isn't released yet, and I've chosen not to buy, doesn't work how I want it to. It's practically violating my rights, even though I was able to exercise my rights as a consumer by not buying it, and it doesn't affect me at all. Nothing has been taken away from me, but I'm really upset.

The pricing and control of used games will affect my choice of consoles. I believe I should have the right to sell used games without intervention as I would anything. If I can't do that on the Xbox but can on another platform, then I'll probably jump. In no way am I entitled to own an Xbox or be upset it doesn't work the way I want it to. All I can do is buy something else instead of crying like a child.

 

[kagemaru]

Sure, then you wind up with the current xbox 360 situation, where by making your game online-only, you immediately lock yourself out of half of the console owners. How many online-only games have been released for the XBox 360? How many games have taken advantage of the huge resources the internet has to offer to enhance gameplay?

Better to lock your game out of half your userbase than to lock half of your potential userbase out of your console entirely IMO.

Besides, with the vast majority of titles being multi-plat titles, why would any studio put in extra work for always online features for Durango instead of just going for parity with the ps4 version?

I can see some possible potential with devs knowing every system is always online, but as we saw this Gen, "potential" could mean nothing in the end.

Very rarely do I hope a product bombs, but I really hope this thing hits Wii-U level sales. Hopefully then someone at MS will wake the fuck up.

 

[3dilettante]

I love this thread. Xbox Live has now been compared to telecom and electricity. No. Just no. Your Xbox Live service shouldn't be relied upon to heat your home or power your fridge and freezer. Your Xbox Live service shouldn't be used to contact emergency services in case of intruders, illness, fire etc.

It's not like any of the companies involved have bought a VOIP service that they hope to roll into a lot of different things.

We're talking about gaming. You have different options. If you don't like one, don't buy it. Don't get mad that you can't use the product that's made with pervasive online services in mind, in an offline mode, especially when you don't know how much it costs, what it does, how it works, what it's named, what it looks like ...

The rules aren't the same once something becomes a service. I think it's fair to expect, if one of the major vendors goes whole-hog down the path of making everything a service, that they can't escape the clawback that real service providers have to face if they don't provide it.
The always online attempts by EA and friends show an unwillingness to maintain their end of the arrangement.

It's bad enough if thousands of gamers might get periodically dicked over in some game's launch, but there's going to be heightened awareness if it starts translating into tens of millions of people across a console's worldwide installed base.

 

[AlphaWolf]

I love this thread. Xbox Live has now been compared to telecom and electricity. No. Just no. Your Xbox Live service shouldn't be relied upon to heat your home or power your fridge and freezer. Your Xbox Live service shouldn't be used to contact emergency services in case of intruders, illness, fire etc.

Buying an Xbox has also been compared to obeying the law in a way that I cannot comprehend. No you cannot choose which laws to obey without repercussion in whatever country you live in. What does that have to do with an entertainment box.

We're talking about gaming. You have different options. If you don't like one, don't buy it. Don't get mad that you can't use the product that's made with pervasive online services in mind, in an offline mode, especially when you don't know how much it costs, what it does, how it works, what it's named, what it looks like ...

Guys, I'm really mad that that thing that isn't released yet, and I've chosen not to buy, doesn't work how I want it to. It's practically violating my rights, even though I was able to exercise my rights as a consumer by not buying it, and it doesn't affect me at all. Nothing has been taken away from me, but I'm really upset.

The pricing and control of used games will affect my choice of consoles. I believe I should have the right to sell used games without intervention as I would anything. If I can't do that on the Xbox but can on another platform, then I'll probably jump. In no way am I entitled to own an Xbox or be upset it doesn't work the way I want it to. All I can do is buy something else instead of crying like a child.

I'm seriously getting sick of your 'don't buy it' line. Complaining about the possible inclusion of an unwanted 'feature' is a way to change it. I can and will complain about it as much as I want. I want an option to buy a quality product not burdened by stupidity. Not buying it only works if enough people have the willpower and principles to follow through. Making the negative aspects known to as many people as possible is part of the process of forcing corporations to offering products you want to buy, rather than the ones they want to sell you.

 

[Tap In]

Better to lock your game out of half your userbase than to lock half of your potential userbase out of your console entirely IMO.

Besides, with the vast majority of titles being multi-plat titles, why would any studio put in extra work for always online features for Durango instead of just going for parity with the ps4 version?

I can see some possible potential with devs knowing every system is always online, but as we saw this Gen, "potential" could mean nothing in the end.

snip...

Do you not think that Ms did extensive research and data mining about their potential market and the state of online WW (again in their main markets)?

1/2 user base for online may be a stretch and I'm certain they set a criteria for what % would be worth it for whatever benefit they expect to gain (which they will eventually explain)

Not to mention other possible expansions of untapped market share that they expect to replace by having online

As for why not make it the same as PS4? Exactly what I think is more likely is if Devs want to use this technology they will do it across both platforms... so Ps4 will get online only games also, just not universally

 

[Scott_Arm]

It's not like any of the companies involved have bought a VOIP service that they hope to roll into a lot of different things.


The rules aren't the same once something becomes a service. I think it's fair to expect, if one of the major vendors goes whole-hog down the path of making everything a service, that they can't escape the clawback that real service providers have to face if they don't provide it.
The always online attempts by EA and friends show an unwillingness to maintain their end of the arrangement.

It's bad enough if thousands of gamers might get periodically dicked over in some game's launch, but there's going to be heightened awareness if it starts translating into tens of millions of people across a console's worldwide installed base.

Since when is Skype regulated anywhere? I feel sorry for the families of anyone that is relying on Skype to contact emergency services. Sure, you provide a paid service, you're expected to deliver the goods, but telecom standards go way above and beyond that. I'm not sure how anyone could argue that Xbox Live or PSN have not done a good job of providing stable services.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I'm seriously getting sick of your 'don't buy it' line. Complaining about the possible inclusion of an unwanted 'feature' is a way to change it. I can and will complain about it as much as I want. I want an option to buy a quality product not burdened by stupidity. Not buying it only works if enough people have the willpower and principles to follow through. Making the negative aspects known to as many people as possible is part of the process of forcing corporations to offering products you want to buy, rather than the ones they want to sell you.

The only complaining they will listen to is the wallet kind. The only market pressures companies respond to is not making enough money. Blame gamers for being drug addicts if you want, but there's no point in complaining on forums.

 

[AlphaWolf]

The only complaining they will listen to is the wallet kind. The only market pressures companies respond to is not making enough money. Blame gamers for being drug addicts if you want, but there's no point in complaining on forums.

Sorry but that's bullshit. Making enough noise can certainly have an impact.

 

[Rockster]

This is hilarious. A consumer electronics device that needs to connect to the internet. How dare they!!!! That is completely unnecessary and ludicrous! I think we should go back to wired controllers because these wireless ones are riddled with latency and causing cancer. Completely unnecessary and of no benefit for me.

 

[3dcgi]

Some of these posts are truly fascinating. Is internet really that primitive and unreliable where y'all live? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this given that I've had always on broadband internet since 1996 in the USA where internet is supposedly more primitive compared to other parts of the world. Yet here we are in 2013 and apparently no one except me seems to have a reliable internet connection. I swear I thought it was just third world places that were still stuck in that predicament, but yikes I guess not. Learn something new everyday.

I live in the US seem to have the internet go out more than most of my friends. The last time it was out for a few days and ended up being a bad cable acting as an antenna that was broadcasting back into the house and this was enough to knock out the internet, but not cable TV. Another time it was a hurricane 250 miles away that took out the ISP.

I don't get it. If they don't like it, don't buy it. Why the tears?

Probably because people have an Xbox 360 and they'd like to continue playing the game franchises they enjoy. I don't mind a console that tries to be always online, but I don't like the principle of requiring it.

On a slightly different note, this is a hell of a way to wipe out all of people's game collections every few years. Every game purchase is a rental if this comes to pass.

This is what worries me the most about the always online trend. That we must trust a company to be around and provide service. Some have commented that people complaining about this lack foresight. I think it's the other way around.

 

[dobwal]

I probably have a good ideal why Durango is always on. Its due to Kinect and the probability that its voice and gesture recognition is handle not by the console itself but by off chip on servers with more robust hardware.

If I am remembering correctly Siri is or was handle in the same way.

Well its probably one of the reasons anyway.

 

[function]

Guys, I'm really mad that that thing that isn't released yet, and I've chosen not to buy, doesn't work how I want it to. It's practically violating my rights, even though I was able to exercise my rights as a consumer by not buying it, and it doesn't affect me at all. Nothing has been taken away from me, but I'm really upset.

You're not buying any posts in this thread yet you seem to be plenty upset by people who want to retain as much control and functionality as possible over their purchases.

You're always one bar short of directly calling people cunts, staying hidden behind sarcastic, passive aggressive and minimally abstracted commentary on others.

 

[AlphaWolf]

This is hilarious. A consumer electronics device that needs to connect to the internet. How dare they!!!! That is completely unnecessary and ludicrous! I think we should go back to wired controllers because these wireless ones are riddled with latency and causing cancer. Completely unnecessary and of no benefit for me.

You actually have the option in that case, there's no downside to an optional feature. I appreciate the option of online, I simply don't want it required to enjoy a single player game that gains no benefit from it. At that point it becomes a negative requirement and not a feature.

 

[AlphaWolf]

I probably have a good ideal why Durango is always on. Its due to Kinect and the probability that its voice and gesture recognition is handle not by the console itself but by off chip on servers with more robust hardware.

If I am remembering correctly Siri is or was handle in the same way.

Well its probably one of the reasons anyway.

If kinect is the excuse it's a piss poor one. I doubt adding 100ms of latency (my average ping to typical gaming servers) to kinect is going to enhance the experience for gaming.

Siri is just an example of awful so I'm not sure what to do with it.

 

[function]

Probably because people have an Xbox 360 and they'd like to continue playing the game franchises they enjoy. I don't mind a console that tries to be always online, but I don't like the principle of requiring it.

Yep, that's how I feel. Add value wherever possible, but maintain as much value as possible when the net is down. On another note, it's easy enough to lose content when activation and downloads are no longer possible, but the idea that under these proposed circumstances I couldn't still play my original Xbox - complete with games that are not available anywhere else in the world - is really bloody annoying.

This is what worries me the most about the always online trend. That we must trust a company to be around and provide service. Some have commented that people complaining about this lack foresight. I think it's the other way around.

Yeah. I've only ever purchased music without DRM for exactly this reason. Like music, I don't find games to be as disposable as many do these days. Every time I think about the old Microsoft "Plays for Sure" DRM I kind of laugh, nervously.

 

[3dilettante]

Since when is Skype regulated anywhere? I feel sorry for the families of anyone that is relying on Skype to contact emergency services. Sure, you provide a paid service, you're expected to deliver the goods, but telecom standards go way above and beyond that. I'm not sure how anyone could argue that Xbox Live or PSN have not done a good job of providing stable services.

The regulatory framework appears to be reacting slowly, but its increasing prominence has started getting Skype attention.
It's possibly more of a target since it was bought.

France is looking into penalizing the failure of Skype to register as a telecom. Outstanding wiretapping legislation for VOIP in the US isn't directed only at Skype, but I haven't heard of Skype getting around it.
Other countries like Mexico technically consider VOIP as telephone services, but so far do not seem to be moving on the distinction yet.
There's also isolated incidents like regional or national bans in repressive nations, or Skype's following the best practices of the People's Republic of China.

The lesson is that the rules change if enough people get involved.

The only complaining they will listen to is the wallet kind. The only market pressures companies respond to is not making enough money. Blame gamers for being drug addicts if you want, but there's no point in complaining on forums.

PSN was down for over three weeks. If the PS3 was an obligatory-online console, Sony's $171 million exposure would have been just the start of its problems.

 

[function]

This is hilarious. A consumer electronics device that needs to connect to the internet. How dare they!!!! That is completely unnecessary and ludicrous! I think we should go back to wired controllers because these wireless ones are riddled with latency and causing cancer. Completely unnecessary and of no benefit for me.

That's a really poor analogy, but it's even poorer because you can actually still get wired controllers and play on your Xbox 360 and PC without any problems at all and it doesn't affect your ability to switch to wireless (or back) whenever you want to.

Before you try and mock people just .... think.

 

[Rockster]

I'm not mocking anyone and as outraged as everyone else that they dare require an internet connection. I'm actually calling my cable provider now because after thinking about it, I'm really upset I can't watch TV when the cable is out and I have to have this constant connection for this entertainment device to work. I bet they are tracking what I am watching and using the information for diabolical purposes. Can't wait to get this service disconnected.

 

[Brad Grenz]

I'm not mocking anyone and as outraged as everyone else that they dare require an internet connection. I'm actually calling my cable provider now because after thinking about it, I'm really upset I can't watch TV when the cable is out and I have to have this constant connection for this entertainment device to work. I bet they are tracking what I am watching and using the information for diabolical purposes. Can't wait to get this service disconnected.

You'd be pissed if you couldn't watch dvds whenever your cable went out. That's closer to what appears to be on tap.

 

[Rockster]

This is a great education. I'm cancelling this Netflix account as well. I just tested it, and also doesn't work without the internet. What crap. I'm testing everything now. If it's not going to work after the apocalypse I'm throwing it out. Not sure what I'll have left when I'm done, but I'm sure it will be enough for what I need. Right guys? Especially since you seem to know what I would and wouldn't be pissed about.