What Happened To Durango?

[TheChefO]

The average pair of eyes can't tell 720p from 1080p or 30 fps from 60 fps, according to various tests I've seen. The difference between them, if the rumored specs are even correct, isn't even enough for either of those differences. You think the average person is going to pick out much lesser differences than those? You think developers are going to bother to make big differences between them when they could just make one set of assets and have it run a little faster on one or the other? The lowest hanging fruit is probably using the extra RAM on the Xbox720s for more textures, ect, and the lowest hanging fruit is going to be the one picked most.

Somewhere you appear to have equated 50% more shader flops to being overall exactly 50% more powerful. Nothing could be further from the truth. Shifty's 20% guess is much closer to reality. In a time of diminishing returns on graphics, when it takes 10x the processing power to make something look 2-3x better, the difference between them will be practically nothing. Except that Microsoft is a quantum leap ahead on developer support, software and relations.

I never said explicitly 50% more powerful.

Realistically, I'm expecting a sub/choppy 30fps title on Durango - and roughly the same title on Orbis, but running 30+fps smoothly. Perhaps higher res, perhaps with additional effects on Orbis due to additional compute resources ...

 

[Silenti]

I would expect any additional available performance to be virtually ignored. (Barring one drastically outselling the other and the usual 1st party titles). Maybe Orbis throws in a few more effects, but the difference doesn't seem to be so drastic that you can double the framerate or go from 720 to 1080.

 

[TheChefO]

I would expect any additional available performance to be virtually ignored. (Barring one drastically outselling the other and the usual 1st party titles). Maybe Orbis throws in a few more effects, but the difference doesn't seem to be so drastic that you can double the framerate or go from 720 to 1080.

From the info we have, Orbis has twice the ROPs and the bandwidth to take advantage of them. This COULD lead to literally twice the frame rate or twice the resolution. Though realistically, I'm expecting some devs will jump through hoops shuffling assets to make the most of the oddball ram setup of Durango which can come close to the bandwidth of Orbis if utilized 100%. But this still leaves a ROP deficit.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I'm talking about the whole package. No one notices all the technical improvements under the hood in Windows 8 because they don't want to deal with terrible new UI.

Eh? The terrible new UI? The ONLY thing that is "worse" is that the Start menu is now a Start screen.

I delayed deploying Win8 on my desktop computer until Jan. 28th (to make sure I got the cheap version) because I wasn't sure if I'd be able to deal with that change. I've had it on my slate PC (tablet) since Nov. 1. But wasn't sure if the mouse experience would be horrible.

Guess what? It took me all of 1 day to get used to it. The only change that was needed? Instead of clicking on the Start button to access the menu I now just hit the Windows key on my keyboard to access the Start Screen. So hard.

Other than that, almost everything about the Desktop UI has improved significantly.

The main issue with Windows 8 is that is such a large departure from what we know as windows.

True, but while most people only focus on the one relatively minor change (start menu versus start screen), everything else about the Desktop UI has improved in a significant way. Task manager is an order of magnitude better. Obscure hidden troubleshooting utilities (like msconfig) are now integrated into the Task manager. File copy is more performant, more informative, and more feature rich. Explorer is significantly better than it was in Win7, but still lacks a feature I loved from Vista. The list goes on an on.

I really wish I hadn't waited until Jan. 28th to update my desktop to Win8. All my fears were completely unfounded. Fostered by the whole Microsoft hate train on the internet. I knew I shouldn't have listened to that crap, but it got into my head and I was expecting a horrible desktop experience. Only to find out that with just one minor adjustment, it's the same or better.

I never said explicitly 50% more powerful.

Realistically, I'm expecting a sub/choppy 30fps title on Durango - and roughly the same title on Orbis, but running 30+fps smoothly. Perhaps higher res, perhaps with additional effects on Orbis due to additional compute resources ...

So basically the same difference between X360 and PS3 in most multiplatform titles? And how is that going? Are people shunning the PS3 as some horrible gaming experience? I'm guessing there's a ton of people on this forum that switched to the X360 when they learned that the PS3 has either lower resolution or lower IQ or lower framerate or all of them together in many multiplatform titles? Oh wait, that hasn't happened? So, what's your point again?

Regards,
SB

 

[TheChefO]

So basically the same difference between X360 and PS3 in most multiplatform titles? And how is that going?

Pretty well for MS right now ...

They are the de-facto standard for most multiplat online gaming which nets them roughly $1B/yr.

Nextgen? Why pay a premium for a subpar experience? Especially when MS are starting to try and monetize the online experience even further with ad placement.

They could afford to charge a premium for a premium experience. When that changes, so will peoples willingness to fork out $50-60/yr.


As I've said, the similarities of the architectures are such that a spade will be called a spade EARLY. This isn't a case like last gen where one had to wait a year for the competition to see the whole picture.

Factor in that BC is likely not in the cards either way, and we have a scenario that could see masses of groups (friend circles saying I'm buying this or that one, let's get the same box so we can play x online) switching platforms.

Again this isn't a scenario where they will have durango or orbis and then say "ooh but teh other box is teh bestest now! I'll sell mine and switch!"

It will be known upfront. Before a purchase is made.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Pretty well for MS right now ...

They are the de-facto standard for most multiplat online gaming which nets them roughly $1B/yr.

Nextgen? Why pay a premium for a subpar experience? Especially when MS are starting to try and monetize the online experience even further with ad placement.

They could afford to charge a premium for a premium experience. When that changes, so will peoples willingness to fork out $50-60/yr.

And despite that X360 and PS3 have basically the same hardware install base.

I'm pretty sure that Microsoft will be quite happy to have basically the same install base as Sony for the next generation. Although I'm sure they are hoping to do better.

So, basically what you are saying is that Durango will be a failure if the next generation ends up being the same as this generation? And yet somehow Orbis won't be?

For myself, I expect both companies to do better next generation as they'll both be targeting casuals as well as "core" gamers from day one.

Regards,
SB

 

[TheChefO]

And despite that X360 and PS3 have basically the same hardware install base.

I'm pretty sure that Microsoft will be quite happy to have basically the same install base as Sony for the next generation. Although I'm sure they are hoping to do better.

So, basically what you are saying is that Durango will be a failure if the next generation ends up being the same as this generation? And yet somehow Orbis won't be?

For myself, I expect both companies to do better next generation as they'll both be targeting casuals as well as "core" gamers from day one.

Regards,
SB

How exactly are they supposed to do the same when they have a performance deficit this time, not an advantage?

Let's run down the list:

Multiplat Game IQ
Orbis

Cheaper MP Online (likely)
Orbis

1st & 2nd Party Development
Orbis

MSRP (likely)
same

Motion Gaming (likely)
same


This is very different from where this gen started off. Ms had a brand issue early, they had a performance deficit perception issue early, but they had a few things going for them:

Better Multiplat game IQ
Better MP online experience
Better (lower) MSRP
Better (lead dev platform) 3rd party Dev support (and a few nice exclusives)


Now, the brand equity is roughly on par, but the performance deficit is not only real, but will show itself early (this will be a first for a Sony console - well since ps1 anyway ).

 

[AlphaWolf]

You make an awful lot of assumptions (certainly lack any facts other than orbis has more flops) to back up your claim that the sky is falling.

 

[dragonelite]

Pretty well for MS right now ...

They are the de-facto standard for most multiplat online gaming which nets them roughly $1B/yr.

Nextgen? Why pay a premium for a subpar experience? Especially when MS are starting to try and monetize the online experience even further with ad placement.

They could afford to charge a premium for a premium experience. When that changes, so will peoples willingness to fork out $50-60/yr.


As I've said, the similarities of the architectures are such that a spade will be called a spade EARLY. This isn't a case like last gen where one had to wait a year for the competition to see the whole picture.

Factor in that BC is likely not in the cards either way, and we have a scenario that could see masses of groups (friend circles saying I'm buying this or that one, let's get the same box so we can play x online) switching platforms.

Again this isn't a scenario where they will have durango or orbis and then say "ooh but teh other box is teh bestest now! I'll sell mine and switch!"

It will be known upfront. Before a purchase is made.

You seems to have already set up your mind.
I say lets wait it out just yet hopefully we get some reveals in 3 hours.
Then we have to see what is real and what is prerendered stuff.
And if im not mistaken sony has a history of over stating performance.

What for impact does Gddr5 actually has on the cpu?
Maybe that will impact some of performance. I wish i know more about the hardware side of computer maybe i will chose it in next minor periode.

For me personally im probably gonna get durango for Destiny and Halo 5/6(if 343 doesn't destroy the universe anymore) so i can play with most of my friends unless they all get the ps4 then i will get both. The last 2 years have been pc gaming for me hope to also upgrade again this year.

Im personally more hyped for Oculus Rift kind of devices wasn't a believer but those CES impressions do make me interested in the tech.

x86 seems like microsoft territory for years now im pretty sure they will have good documentation.

 

[TheChefO]

You make an awful lot of assumptions (certainly lack any facts other than orbis has more flops) to back up your claim that the sky is falling.

Assumptions based on (the relatively accepted) leaked specs and where these consoles are similar and different.

And BTW it isn't just a flop deficit... bandwidth as well.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

As is, these boxes are nearly identical (except for how many compute resources are available to each and bandwidth). Again, we don't know for fact exactly what the end result difference will be, but they are far too similar to not compare and come to a logical conclusion which sees a clear disadvantage in Durango.

We don't know the CPUs. It's possible, from the same random rumour sources as all the other info, that Durango's CPU float performance is 2x that of Orbis. And in real terms, that fully programmable float performance may yield greater returns than 4 CUs of Orbis. We have no idea what those 4 CUs of Orbis are doing, nor how much OS overhead there is other than rumoured RAM. We have no idea what library overheads there are. eg. In PS3, there was a hell of a lot more RAM consumed by OS features than in XB360 (not just reserved RAM, but libraries like Friends Lists consuming multi megabytes on PS3 being OS features in XB360), meaning what's the same RAM on paper ended up with a 20%+ deficit in PS3 at times. We have no idea how the ESRAM works and what that brings to Durango. Where have no idea on the details of the DSPs or the peripherals or the overheads of them. We don't know the drive specs or the IO and streaming speeds. We don't know the price or the business models.

These details make the difference. Just pointing at "8 core 1.6 GHz x86 + 12/18 CUs" and concluding Durango is better is demonstrating a significant degree of technical illiteracy.

However, the information we do have is not exactly blowing peoples doors off now is it? Maybe VG Leaks is dead wrong, maybe there is plenty of "special sauce"

It's not about special sauce, but system architecture. Enough 10% gains here and there can lead to significant improvement, and a couple of cock-ups on the other side can help matters moreso (broken hardware scaler, anyone?). As I say above, the basic numbers on paper aren't telling the whole story. It's giving a silhouette, or a 10,000 foot view. Durango could be anything from remarkably similar to Orbis in what it puts on screen, to similar enough that few notice the difference, to tragically underpowered and struggling (I rule out far superior because I trust Sony to make a decent job of the hardware we know, and it'd be mighty difficult to take the same core architectures and more paper processing power and make it perform substantially worse). There's nothing like enough info to determine where it stands, at which point any discussion about what MS have done wrong is premature.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Assumptions based on (the relatively accepted) leaked specs and where these consoles are similar and different.

And BTW it isn't just a flop deficit... bandwidth as well.

Price, motion gaming and free mp on ps3(rumors to the contrary). Motion gaming might exist on both, but it's unlikely to be the same.

Which orifice did you pull that from? Your schtick is getting tired.

 

[XpiderMX]

We don't know the CPUs. It's possible, from the same random rumour sources as all the other info, that Durango's CPU float performance is 2x that of Orbis. And in real terms, that fully programmable float performance may yield greater returns than 4 CUs of Orbis. We have no idea what those 4 CUs of Orbis are doing, nor how much OS overhead there is other than rumoured RAM. We have no idea what library overheads there are. eg. In PS3, there was a hell of a lot more RAM consumed by OS features than in XB360 (not just reserved RAM, but libraries like Friends Lists consuming multi megabytes on PS3 being OS features in XB360), meaning what's the same RAM on paper ended up with a 20%+ deficit in PS3 at times. We have no idea how the ESRAM works and what that brings to Durango. Where have no idea on the details of the DSPs or the peripherals or the overheads of them. We don't know the drive specs or the IO and streaming speeds. We don't know the price or the business models.

These details make the difference. Just pointing at "8 core 1.6 GHz x86 + 12/18 CUs" and concluding Durango is better is demonstrating a significant degree of technical illiteracy.

Then, we need some devs point of view :smile:

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Then, we need some devs point of view :smile:

Which isn't likely going to happen until after the consoles launch as everyone is under NDA. Hell, some things will likely "still" be under NDA even after launch just like they are with the current generation.

Regards,
SB

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Which isn't likely going to happen until after the consoles launch as everyone is under NDA. Hell, some things will likely "still" be under NDA even after launch just like they are with the current generation.

At which point we can look at the actual products and see what they do, instead of making blind guesses. Sorry, not blind guesses. One eyed, astigmatic guesses, but not completely blind ones.

 

[TheChefO]

Price, motion gaming and free mp on ps3(rumors to the contrary). Motion gaming might exist on both, but it's unlikely to be the same.

That's why I said "likely" on those items.

Price is likely to be in the same ballpark as neither console has an anchor bringing BOM to unreasonable levels.

Motion is likely to be nearly the same as both will have an HD cam (or two) and both have roughly the same guts to decode the cam data.

Also I didn't say "free mp". I said "cheaper mp (likely)".

Your attitude is unnecessary.

 

[TheChefO]

... concluding Durango is better is demonstrating a significant degree of technical illiteracy...

Obviously we don't know every detail. But from what we do know, I'm willing to take that information and present my expected performance from the known specs.

As more is known, obviously opinions will adjust to match.

As is, it's simply a matter of how much the compute deficit will affect the result on screen.

IMO

 

[BRiT]

Obviously we don't know every detail. But from what we do know, I'm willing to take that information and present my expected performance from the known specs.

As more is known, obviously opinions will adjust to match.

As is, it's simply a matter of how much the compute deficit will affect the result on screen.

IMO

You don't know shit.

This thread is pointless until we know something.

This discussion is nothing but noise until official information is released, so it's best to remain closed until that time.