PlayStation 4 (codename Orbis) technical hardware investigation (news and rumours)

[Averagejoe]

Is 8GB really necessary.?

Does Sony really has to match MS ram amount.?

I think they don't need to,i was just comparing 2 7970 GPU from different vendors,and the His 7970 IceQ and the SAPPHIRE TOXIC HD 7970.

The IceQ has 3GB GDDR5,the Toxic has 6GB GDDR5,both have same clock speed,and memory speed configurations from what i could see.

Seeing the benchmarks charts at Tomshardware,these cards basically perform the same,and while most of the test were won by the Toxic some were won by the IceQ,and on games like Crysis and Battlefield which are basically use all over the net as benchmarks,they were basically even 1 frame difference,now i know there are some other variables into the equation,but i think 8GB GDDR5 is not only overkill is not really need it,considering the GPU we are getting on those consoles is not even close to the 7970 Toxic or 7970 IceQ.

 

[Averagejoe]

If they use stacking that reduces heat and power output right? Does that mean yeilds will be good and they can activate the remaining 2 CUs? or maybe put in a better GPU.

8 Gb high bandwidth ram would take PCs years to catch up to. It's great future proofing but I wonder about diminishing returns. Unless they increase bandwidth over 200 gb/s, I don't see how that much ram will really make that big of a difference. 4-6 gb seems enough but then again we don't really know how next gen games work. Better textures, physics, engines, etc. Crysis 3 is the only next gen game that is coming out soon. Until we have an idea what that game requires to play on 1080p60 fps with high setttings and in 3D, it's hard to speculate what is really needed for next gen games.

I have a problem with this analogy,8GB of ram with a weak GPU isn't really something great.

8GB will ensure enough bandwidth but with what will you fill it,this is what will keep PC ahead of consoles no matter the different of bandwidth.

Is like having a race track of 8 lines but having just 5 cars to ride on that track,while on the other race track you have 40 cars and just 6 lanes.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

There is a pretty simple reason for Sony to target 8GB: Microsoft has it.

It's all about the business strategy and the target customers. If Sony aims to have the number one core gaming system on the market, which is becoming more and more obvious with every new (concrete) leak, then they will have to beat Microsoft in terms of graphical capabilities at all costs. Better safe than sorry.

 

[anexanhume]

Is 8GB really necessary.?

Does Sony really has to match MS ram amount.?

I think they don't need to,i was just comparing 2 7970 GPU from different vendors,and the His 7970 IceQ and the SAPPHIRE TOXIC HD 7970.

The IceQ has 3GB GDDR5,the Toxic has 6GB GDDR5,both have same clock speed,and memory speed configurations from what i could see.

Seeing the benchmarks charts at Tomshardware,these cards basically perform the same,and while most of the test were won by the Toxic some were won by the IceQ,and on games like Crysis and Battlefield which are basically use all over the net as benchmarks,they were basically even 1 frame difference,now i know there are some other variables into the equation,but i think 8GB GDDR5 is not only overkill is not really need it,considering the GPU we are getting on those consoles is not even close to the 7970 Toxic or 7970 IceQ.

Situations are only mildly comparable. Those GPU RAMs don't hold an OS and all the CPU related memory. More memory can always be filled by devs too. Pre-loading textures and other assets. RAM amounts increase over time regardless of your card's relative flop count.

 

[Bagel seed]

As long as they have 176gb/s, it'll be capable of ~5.5gb/frame at 30fps. So definitely not useless.

Also I wonder how much after hearing MS going for a 3gb OS rattled them, and now they want to make sure they're not left behind there. Reserving another at least 1.5g would give them some breathing room in case they want to match on features.

 

[London Geezer]

If there are a few things that will make the average joe think that one console is 'more powerful' than the other, it is seeing that one has 4GB and the other 8GB RAM. Certainly not the amount of CU's, the type of RAM or most other aspects we geeks talk about on here.
So for that reason alone it would be beneficial for Sony.
They will have a hard time trying to convince the general public that their 4GB console is 'more powerful' than the one with double the amount of RAM - regardless of how fast it is or what it's used for.

I'm really talking about marketing here. We all know Sony's marketing tends to push the power of the hardware more than other manufacturers - even back in the PS2 days.

 

[Bagel seed]

Partly for marketing reasons, maybe. Companies might have been able to fool the public pretty easily back in the old days (blast processing, etc), but now with the internet people can figure out what's what.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

Reminds of the good old times when the console manufacturers used Bits to promote their systems...

 

[Quaz51]

As long as they have 176gb/s, it'll be capable of ~5.5gb/frame at 30fps. So definitely not useless.

wrong reasoning, too simplistic
for exemple X360 with 8.5GB/frame for 10MB pool ram...

 

[Bagel seed]

wrong reasoning, too simplistic
for exemple X360 with 8.5GB/frame for 10MB pool ram...

Well we wouldn't derive gb/frame using the 360's edram. We'd look at the bandwith of the 512mb unified pool because that's where the assets are stored.

 

[Quaz51]

it's just an exemple. on the GDDR5 there is lot of write, rewrite, reread, not just "single read", there is framebuffer too
very wrong reasoning and arithmetic. eDRAM X360 pool is a good exemple for framebuffer

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think they don't need to,i was just comparing 2 7970 GPU from different vendors,and the His 7970 IceQ and the SAPPHIRE TOXIC HD 7970.

Seeing the benchmarks charts at Tomshardware,these cards basically perform the same.

If you compare a game written for x GB RAM on systems with both x and x+y GBs RAM, you shouldn't expect a difference. Only when comparing games targeting a larger RAM pool on the lower RAM system would the differences reveal themselves as the lower RAM GPU thrashes assets. Of course, without the requisite BW, I don't much see the value of higher RAM in Orbis other than solving potential steaming issues.

 

[patsu]

If there are a few things that will make the average joe think that one console is 'more powerful' than the other, it is seeing that one has 4GB and the other 8GB RAM. Certainly not the amount of CU's, the type of RAM or most other aspects we geeks talk about on here.
So for that reason alone it would be beneficial for Sony.
They will have a hard time trying to convince the general public that their 4GB console is 'more powerful' than the one with double the amount of RAM - regardless of how fast it is or what it's used for.

I'm really talking about marketing here. We all know Sony's marketing tends to push the power of the hardware more than other manufacturers - even back in the PS2 days.

They better think about what service or business to enable with 8GB RAM.

If they give people an 8GB console for the same but prettier gaming experience, folks will want to run their own flavor of Linux on it. ^_^ => unprecedented level of hacking.

EDIT: I still doubt we will see an 8GB Sony console. An 8GB Vaio laptop with PS4 guts, or a 8-16GB PS4 Gaikai server devkit *maybe*.

 

[Bagel seed]

it's just an exemple. on the GDDR5 there is lot of write, rewrite, reread, not just "single read", there is framebuffer too
very wrong reasoning and arithmetic. eDRAM X360 pool is a good exemple for framebuffer

Yes 5.5gb/frame is only a theoretical number and it fits into 8GB of ram, but at the same time we can probably expect to see above 3.5gb/frame usage realized too, if there was enough ram.

 

[onQ]

Is 8GB really necessary.?

Does Sony really has to match MS ram amount.?

I think they don't need to,i was just comparing 2 7970 GPU from different vendors,and the His 7970 IceQ and the SAPPHIRE TOXIC HD 7970.

The IceQ has 3GB GDDR5,the Toxic has 6GB GDDR5,both have same clock speed,and memory speed configurations from what i could see.

Seeing the benchmarks charts at Tomshardware,these cards basically perform the same,and while most of the test were won by the Toxic some were won by the IceQ,and on games like Crysis and Battlefield which are basically use all over the net as benchmarks,they were basically even 1 frame difference,now i know there are some other variables into the equation,but i think 8GB GDDR5 is not only overkill is not really need it,considering the GPU we are getting on those consoles is not even close to the 7970 Toxic or 7970 IceQ.

No games have been made with 6GB of VRAM in mind yet so this test will not show the difference.

 

[Bagel seed]

Honestly if they are aiming for 8GB, it's going to be an HBM or stacked solution. So I don't see why they need to stop at 176gb/s.

I just want to see what some creative dev can achieve with those specs. We'll never see it PC side for years, and if Sony can do it now, let them They can always sell another building or factory if we worry about their finances so much.

 

[Cjail]

There is a pretty simple reason for Sony to target 8GB: Microsoft has it.

It's all about the business strategy and the target customers. If Sony aims to have the number one core gaming system on the market, which is becoming more and more obvious with every new (concrete) leak, then they will have to beat Microsoft in terms of graphical capabilities at all costs. Better safe than sorry.

I agree.
If Sony target the 8GB it will also please developers that during the last last months often asked/suggested at least 8GB.
If PS4 will end up with 4GB in 2-3 years time I fear we will see many dev consider it too limited, even if it has GDDR5, and maybe even drop it.

It won't be cheap or easy for Sony to go from 4 to 8GB but surely it will not be in vain.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

If they really manage to release a next generation gaming console in 2013 with a 2.5D stacked SiP consisting of 8 GB WideIO RAM and a high end AMD HSA APU then the whole industry will take their hats off to Sony! You need cojones for such a design.

 

[AstoundingHolmes]

What do you mean by cache? DDR3 just for IO caching is going to be as costly as DDR3 for open use. You'll still needs a second bus, mem-controller, and mobo changes. 4 GBs of cache on the HDD side incorporated into the disc controller and accessed via the SATA channel would be cheaper but not quite the same thing as upping the RAM. I don't believe anyone would get away with selling a laptop as having 14 GBs RAM if it actually has 6 GBs RAM and 8 GBs flash-enhanced hybrid HDD. As such, the statement 'upgrade to 8GBs RAM' really suggests more DRAM of some form, which is still going to be very costly.

No, I meant actual DRAM acting as an intermediary cache between the GDDR5 pool and the disc and HDD drive in order to speed up access to frequently use assets, again similar to the PSP2000 setup. Sony did something similar, though slower, with the PS3 this generation, temporarily allocating, IIRC, 2 GB for games to cache from bluray disc to the PS3's HDD to speed data access and avoid seek times for the bluray drive. Except here you would have essentially a RAM drive temporarily caching data from the disc/disk drive instead. Also, I presume you wouldn't need to create an addition bus, since you'd be passing through the south bridge bus, though perhaps, I'm over valuing the bus running from it. If so, couldn't it simply be beefed up a bit to handled a larger throughput? One way or another, there already exists an interconnect between the SoC and the HDD/disc drive, expanding its scope a bit seems a good deal simpler than reworking the memory controller and such to access 8GB of GDDR5.

 

[dragonelite]

If they really manage to release a next generation gaming console in 2013 with a 2.5D stacked SiP consisting of 8 GB WideIO RAM and a high end AMD HSA APU then the whole industry will take their hats off to Sony! You need cojones for such a design.

Or they need to be on suicide watch..
But hats of if they do it they can have my 499 if it fells within that price range day freaking one.