PlayStation 4 (codename Orbis) technical hardware investigation (news and rumours)

[Quaz51]

Either way, 8 GB on the dev kit pretty much guarantee's that it'll be 4 GB on the console. If the console will be 8 GB, then the dev kit would likely need 12-16 GB for development.

no, there is counterexample
and a 8GB console (like X720) indicate big OS pool. big OS pool is manly empty buffer for OS features. devkit can use this OS pool for dev tools

 

[Silent_Buddha]

no, there is counterexample
and a 8GB console (like X720) indicate big OS pool. big OS pool is manly empty buffer for OS features. devkit can use this OS pool for dev tools

As was pointed out to me, the Durango dev kit is 12 GB, IIRC.

Regards,
SB

 

[Quaz51]

it's not contradictory and there isn't information on final X720 devkit
if Sony would want 8GB for PS4 then they will put 8GB in the devkit too because you can't put above 8GB GDDR5

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There's also the possibility of having 8GB devkits now targeting, say, 6 GBs in the console with 2 GBs free for development resources, and then upgrade the devkits to 12-16 GBs when possible at a later date enabling full access to 8GB access on PS4. The important thing is to select a RAM amount of the life of the console. Development machines can be changed over time, but the hardware cannot (in the traditional console model).

 

[Quaz51]

for me a 8GB devkit is enough for a 8GB console with 2GB OS

and i think there will never be 1GB GDDR5 chips for hypothetic 16GB devkit

 

[MrFox]

They can always do 6GB asymetrically:
4x 4Gb x32
8x 4Gb x16 clamshell
The controller could interleave them so that the upper 2GB of the addressing space would be at half speed, and the lower 4GB would be full speed. Not a very beautiful system though

 

[Quaz51]

i don't say PS4 will have 8GB, for me PS4 don't need 8GB GDDR5, but i just say it's technically possible and even at the last moment

 

[Xenus]

It may not need it but it'll be awesome to have it

 

[deanos]

one can never have enough ram.

 

[Strange]

Ogre gamers: must... have... moar... RAM...

 

[patsu]

i don't say PS4 will have 8GB, for me PS4 don't need 8GB GDDR5, but i just say it's technically possible and even at the last moment

Yes, seems overkill. The only scenario I can see is a 16GB Gaikai PS4 server for the devs. I doubt they will let us buy personal Gaikai server but I would love to take a look.

 

[AstoundingHolmes]

Has anyone considered the additional 4GB of ram is cache? Given that Bluray is not the best at seeks and a 5400RPM laptop drive not that fast, and that Sony's 1st party developers seem quite big on stream engines, maybe Sony felt it was worthwhile to create a large stream cache using some cheap RAM. It shouldn't cost too much, and there should be some cost savings versus having to resource a high performance 7200RPM laptop drive. And if Sony has hit a wall where adding even more GDDR5 ram is simply too costly, then adding a large cheap cache of RAM wouldn't necessarily be seen as a waste. Also, while I'm not sure it's feasible, perhap Sony can configure things to run the OS services from this cache RAM during gameplay, which would free up the rumored 512MB of OS reserved RAM from the GDDR5 pool. And Sony has done something slightly similar with the PSP.

 

[DieH@rd]

Considering there were some old rumours of sony testing multiple memory configurations with two different types of devkits, I think it highly possible that Sony may have been planning a HBM/WideIO stacked memory solution from the start. And maybe they had the 2-4GB GDDR5 option as a back-up, in case the stacking technology would not be ready in time.

Sony's CTO was really focused on stacking tech in that early 2012 interview. Im sure they have looked hard into it, but who knows what we will get. After all, 4gb of GDDR5 is still awesome.
http://mandetech.com/2012/01/10/sony-masaaki-tsuruta-interview/

I think plenty here have expressed a belief that even GDDR5 would be replaced by stacked RAM eventually even if the console doesn't launch with it.

If they change the memory controller and the memory type down the line, how would they avoid messing up the memory performance characteristics, so that the new "slim" console behaves exactly as if it had GDDR5? Is memory timing something that can be "simulated"?

Maybe... just maybe... first hardware refresh that will introduce interposer-able memory will come already in 2nd part of 2014, enabling Sony to force developers to create mandatory "lets fix memory access" patches to all software. The important thing is to do this fast, give all developers with full SDK support and enough lead time, not give too much time for creation of shitton of new games and keep the transition to "manageable" size. They could offer developers bigger piece of the royalties for those games, future discounts for various services, cheaper devkits, cheaper/free software support from their ninjas, etc.

 

[MrFox]

Sony's CTO was really focused on stacking tech in that early 2012 interview. Im sure they have looked hard into it, but who knows what we will get. After all, 4gb of GDDR5 is still awesome.

What I hate about the format of the interview, is that there's so much information that are outside of the CTO's quotes, and are translated and paraphrased and even interpreted by the interviewer, the context is also very muddy. He was talking about the future technologies they are working on, which were at least 5 years away (so it's all PS5 tech). The answer he gave about things being possible for next gen were immediately after the question of 28nm. My pessimist side thinks he simply said that 28nm is now possible for PS4, despite the problems and delays.

In addition, Tsuruta-san has noted the difficulties in achieving viable yields at 28nm, though he believes that these problems are now moving towards a resolution.
"We are confident that we can now see a way and that we can use some of these advanced methods to create a new kind of system-on-chip. We think that there are the technologies today that can be taken to this project.”

It's a direct answer to the 28nm question. Advanced method, as in advanced process. 28nm.

The Cell Broadband Engine that powered the PS3 cost $400m to develop; the main SoC for the incoming console is likely to be a 3D stack incorporating thru-silicon-via technology and could be the first $1bn hardware design project.

This isn't part of the interview, it's the journalist saying this. There's no source for this statement. "is likely" my ass. Where does the $1bn figure comes from? (I did say this was my pessimist side)

 

[novcze]

Has anyone considered the additional 4GB of ram is cache? ....

Yes, they can have this cache on the SATA3 controller running at full speed 600 MB/s, then write/read from HDD around 90MB/s.
It's rumored that they will have gameplay recording without impact on performance and I don't know how they could achieve that without cache, constant writing on the HDD will surely have impact on performance.

 

[XpiderMX]

There is a graphic cards with 6GB gddr5 available. Not that hard to develop something that is already developed.
http://www.overclockersclub.com/vimages/sapphire_hd7970_6gb_vaporx_ghz/23.jpg

http://www.overclockersclub.com/vimages/sapphire_hd7970_6gb_vaporx_ghz/21.jpg

It is a $700 at Newegg!

EDIT: any possibility for 8GB GDDR5 in a <$400 video game console? it is insane...

 

[Inuhanyou]

That is for the graphics cards. If your ordering ram chips themselves, nowhere near that expensive.

The biggest issue right now is heat and power draw.

I'd say that Sony, if they really want to, might be able to squeeze in 2 more gigs before launch if they slightly downclock it.

That leaves us with a pretty good unit, and will manage to avoid any possible memory shortage issue up against Durango. We can assume Durango will have a decent sized OS, and so if the rumors of PS4's OS being 500 are true, 5.5 allocated to games with a 1.8tflop gpu would be fantastic

I doubt there's anyway we could see 8GB of GDDR5 in the PS4, they don't even sell units like that, and it would probably run much hot.

 

[itsmydamnation]

I'd say that Sony, if they really want to, might be able to squeeze in 2 more gigs before launch if they slightly downclock it.

how might they be able to?

i know they could put the extra chips on the baord and not solder them

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Has anyone considered the additional 4GB of ram is cache?

What do you mean by cache? DDR3 just for IO caching is going to be as costly as DDR3 for open use. You'll still needs a second bus, mem-controller, and mobo changes. 4 GBs of cache on the HDD side incorporated into the disc controller and accessed via the SATA channel would be cheaper but not quite the same thing as upping the RAM. I don't believe anyone would get away with selling a laptop as having 14 GBs RAM if it actually has 6 GBs RAM and 8 GBs flash-enhanced hybrid HDD. As such, the statement 'upgrade to 8GBs RAM' really suggests more DRAM of some form, which is still going to be very costly.

 

[Averagejoe]

Sold at a loss until later on in the lifecycle, like all other generations. This time Sony must have saved some (a lot of) capital compared to the whole Cell adventure, so perhaps they are still willing to sell at a loss initially, knowing they will be able to drive costs down later?

That make incredible sense the PS3 cost like $800 to manufacture back on the day,now i am not saying sony will spend this kind of money on the PS4 but imagine what beats it would be if they did.?

Now i think they can go $450 to $500 total and loss $100 or $50 in the first 9 months to a year,but that is what the 360 did and the Xenos was a stronger GPU and newer tech compare to what the 720 or PS4 would have in time frame,i think these systems from MS and sony as of now are been build with a politics of no loss in mind at the start,so a small loss is totally acceptable.