News & Rumours: Playstation 4/ Orbis *spin*

Status
Not open for further replies.
That sounds to me that MS reserved 3GB for future plans, while Sony reserved more than needed and will likely reduce the footprint as the generation goes on. That's exactly what the other 'insiders' have heard.

One of our best insiders has repeatedly noted of the 3gb, 1gb is actually in limbo and not used for anything on the microsoft machine. the option to give it back to games exists. i guess they are playing wait and see with it, although that info may be old by now. It's 5GB games, 1GB nothing, and 2GB OS for MS currently, or at least last was heard.

personally i would rather have a hard number that is locked. it sound to me like 1gb for sony exists much like the 2nd spu on cell that was reserved for os. the claim was 1 spu was reserved for os, but a 2nd had to be available to the os at any time, so you could only use it for noncritical game code.

it sounds like the same concept on this fuzzy 1gb of OS RAM between 4.5gb and 5.5gb with PS4.
 
One of our best insiders has repeatedly noted of the 3gb, 1gb is actually in limbo and not used for anything on the microsoft machine. the option to give it back to games exists. i guess they are playing wait and see with it, although that info may be old by now. It's 5GB games, 1GB nothing, and 2GB OS for MS currently, or at least last was heard.

personally i would rather have a hard number that is locked. it sound to me like 1gb for sony exists much like the 2nd spu on cell that was reserved for os. the claim was 1 spu was reserved for os, but a 2nd had to be available to the os at any time, so you could only use it for noncritical game code.

it sounds like the same concept on this fuzzy 1gb of OS RAM between 4.5gb and 5.5gb with PS4.

Yeah, it would be better to be 5 GB for games plus 3 for OS than 4.5 for games and 1 flexible plus 2.5 for OS.That 1 GB flexible seems like a complicated arrangement that wont be used in the end by small studios and is against all the elegant and simple PS4 design and philosophy.
 
I have just been told that while the DF article is accurate there is one important point Richard seems to have got wrong.

With the flexible memory pool, it actually has only 512 MB of physical memory allocated to it - not 1 GB (Richard might have got confused by the fact that the pool can have up to 1024 MB of virtual memory addressed to it)

So the total available physical memory is 5 GB for devs (including the 512 MB in the flexible memory pool), with 3 GB reserved for the system.
 
I have just been told that while the DF article is accurate there is one important point Richard seems to have got wrong.

With the flexible memory pool, it actually has only 512 MB of physical memory allocated to it - not 1 GB (Richard might have got confused by the fact that the pool can have up to 1024 MB of virtual memory addressed to it)

So the total available physical memory is 5 GB for devs (including the 512 MB in the flexible memory pool), with 3 GB reserved for the system.

Sounds like good info. Probably why one GAF insider was saying DF got it wrong.

It also jives completely with the Chinese BBS dev from a ways back. He said 3GB reserved, so I was wondering how the two reconciled.

Edit: Wait, is it that:

4.5 GB free and clear
.5GB ~useful with restrictions
3GB totally locked away

?

Or

5GB totally free
.5GB useful with restrictions
2.5GB totally locked

If it's the former I guess that's not really an improvement vs our prior understanding. In fact it's a negative (as you've moved 512MB from "restricted" to "unavailable).
 
Yeah, it's the former: 4.5GB + 0.5GB + 3GB

I am very surprised the reservation is this large!

But I suppose it's good to finally have the last major piece of info outstanding from our knowledge of the two systems.
 
spin spin spin...

It seems ever more apparent at every moment that the system isn't actually much well-architected or justified in its eccentric parts, instead relying on Cerny's marketing keywords to window-dress AMD's commodity engineering.

Seriously though, you'll do well with 4.5GB of RAM on a dedicated console. Things like virtual texturing will help quite a bit, and we have to consider that with the maximum resolution still remains at 1920*1080, workarounds like shader AA or dynamic res will count too.
 
Dropping the PS to 50mb was stupid as they were unable to add cross game chat later.

I'm very impressed that less than a handful can grasp this simple concept on B3D of all places.
It's not hard, everyone 'gets that'. It's the amount that matters, and the justification. These consoles are an engineering challenge, developed by rational people employing logical thinking to set their targets and numerous compromises (we hope). At every step along the way, you can look at the choices and compromises and nod and say to yourself, "okay, I see why they did that. Maybe not what I'd have done, or maybe so, but it makes sense." Low powered consoles, BC, monster consoles, little RAM, eDRAM, etc., all make sense within the boxes they fit. Reserving 1 GB when your OS uses 500 MBs makes sense, for leg room. But reserving 1.5 GBs for OS, which isn't a full-fledged PC, adding 1 GB for 'apps' where there's nothing apparent that'd ever need that match, and then having another 1 GB loose that no-one's sure what to do with so lets the devs access it but may pull it away (8GBs unified RAM to make it easier for the devs, remember, and not 4.5 GBs unified RAM and 1 GB partitioned where you have to develop your code with attention to if it's pulled from under you, RAM) doesn't make sense (with the information currently available)

For me, the debate isn't whether games would use 7 GBs or not, or whether there should be room to grow or not. It's about why 8 GBs GDDR5 was chosen if only half of it is available, and whether the non-gaming content is being efficiently developed or is wasteful software-engineering bloat. Why not a physical RAM split between game and OS (GDDR5 and DDR3), giving devs a unified memory because they only operate in the game space? That'd have been a much cheaper solution. Why 1.5 GBs for the OS, especially when 512 MBs was enough when the system only had 4 GBs total? Why is 1.5 GBs not enough to do everything you could want to do? Why 1 GB additionally reserved?

Taking PS3 as an example, at launch we all said, "why on earth do they need so much RAM?" And they didn't. They didn't need 120 MBs, only 50. Now you can say that it was a mistake to drop the RAM and miss out on cross-game-chat, but that shows lack of foresight and wouldn't have needed another 70 MBs to implement either - Sony should have had CGC in mind from the beginning (and probably did because we had it hinted at numerous times, and there's a possibility the lack of CGC had nothing to do with RAM and everything to do with policy makers).

What I don't get is how portions of the B3D populace can see a deign choice and accept it without question and curiosity or solid, logical justification. "Just in case," could be applied to Sony putting in 16 GBs and only allowing 4 GBs to devs. There is a line drawn where 'enough is enough'. I want to know the justification for 2.5+ GBs for the system.
 
2.5GB+ of RAM reserved for the system sounds insane given their push for 8GB of RAM supposedly happened rather late in the dev cycle.

They presumably envisaged the system (and the feature set it is supposed to support) with 4GB (maybe even just 2GB) of RAM in mind ... I'd have thought their system allocation didn't exceed 1GB of RAM. Maybe a very generous 2GB if they decided to shift the video recording stuff away from the HDD ... but 2.5GB PLUS some additional space that's dynamically allocated? Wow.

They must have made some serious changes to their overall vision of the system after finally deciding to go with 8GB of RAM.
 
Looks like I'm selling my launch PS4 on eBay when I get it..... So disappointed about what they've done with the RAM.... They've ruined the machine and its capabilities.

I actually thought Sony had seen seen sense this time around and was planning on selling my gaming PC and moving back to consoles, but looks like ill be gaming on PC for another generation.
 
From what I have heard of a reliable source, the ram allocation is big but 5 GB is guaranteed for dev. There is normal and large mode.And the reserved RAM is not only for game OS and non gaming app but for gaming stuff like Gakai, remote play, share video and progressive download and streaming for example. All this things will be in every game, only camera based game will not have remote play...

And OS reservation is a moving target, it will probably decrease like PS3...

All the function, I talk about are base OS now and will be use in every game...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It's not hard, everyone 'gets that'. It's the amount that matters, and the justification. These consoles are an engineering challenge, developed by rational people employing logical thinking to set their targets and numerous compromises (we hope). At every step along the way, you can look at the choices and compromises and nod and say to yourself, "okay, I see why they did that. Maybe not what I'd have done, or maybe so, but it makes sense." Low powered consoles, BC, monster consoles, little RAM, eDRAM, etc., all make sense within the boxes they fit. Reserving 1 GB when your OS uses 500 MBs makes sense, for leg room. But reserving 1.5 GBs for OS, which isn't a full-fledged PC, adding 1 GB for 'apps' where there's nothing apparent that'd ever need that match, and then having another 1 GB loose that no-one's sure what to do with so lets the devs access it but may pull it away (8GBs unified RAM to make it easier for the devs, remember, and not 4.5 GBs unified RAM and 1 GB partitioned where you have to develop your code with attention to if it's pulled from under you, RAM) doesn't make sense (with the information currently available)

As mentioned before, they just choose safe strategy (3.5 GB reserved ) to ensure that
everything on XB1 can also be realized on PS4. Of cource not all these features of XB1 are
needed for PS4, but it takes time to study which features should be kept, and which should't. Therefore after a period of time when they make sure that which functions are most important for gamers, then they can reduce the RAM reserved for OS and apps in the background.
 
It's not hard, everyone 'gets that'. It's the amount that matters, and the justification. These consoles are an engineering challenge, developed by rational people employing logical thinking to set their targets and numerous compromises (we hope). At every step along the way, you can look at the choices and compromises and nod and say to yourself, "okay, I see why they did that. Maybe not what I'd have done, or maybe so, but it makes sense." Low powered consoles, BC, monster consoles, little RAM, eDRAM, etc., all make sense within the boxes they fit. Reserving 1 GB when your OS uses 500 MBs makes sense, for leg room. But reserving 1.5 GBs for OS, which isn't a full-fledged PC, adding 1 GB for 'apps' where there's nothing apparent that'd ever need that match, and then having another 1 GB loose that no-one's sure what to do with so lets the devs access it but may pull it away (8GBs unified RAM to make it easier for the devs, remember, and not 4.5 GBs unified RAM and 1 GB partitioned where you have to develop your code with attention to if it's pulled from under you, RAM) doesn't make sense (with the information currently available)

For me, the debate isn't whether games would use 7 GBs or not, or whether there should be room to grow or not. It's about why 8 GBs GDDR5 was chosen if only half of it is available, and whether the non-gaming content is being efficiently developed or is wasteful software-engineering bloat. Why not a physical RAM split between game and OS (GDDR5 and DDR3), giving devs a unified memory because they only operate in the game space? That'd have been a much cheaper solution. Why 1.5 GBs for the OS, especially when 512 MBs was enough when the system only had 4 GBs total? Why is 1.5 GBs not enough to do everything you could want to do? Why 1 GB additionally reserved?

Taking PS3 as an example, at launch we all said, "why on earth do they need so much RAM?" And they didn't. They didn't need 120 MBs, only 50. Now you can say that it was a mistake to drop the RAM and miss out on cross-game-chat, but that shows lack of foresight and wouldn't have needed another 70 MBs to implement either - Sony should have had CGC in mind from the beginning (and probably did because we had it hinted at numerous times, and there's a possibility the lack of CGC had nothing to do with RAM and everything to do with policy makers).

What I don't get is how portions of the B3D populace can see a deign choice and accept it without question and curiosity or solid, logical justification. "Just in case," could be applied to Sony putting in 16 GBs and only allowing 4 GBs to devs. There is a line drawn where 'enough is enough'. I want to know the justification for 2.5+ GBs for the system.

Shifty, The OS reservation are not only for non gaming app but for gaming stuff too progressive download and streaming for example. The dev need some RAM for streaming, you can argue than it will better to let dev choose the amount of RAM allocated to game streaming but Sony want progressive download to be a standard functionality of PS4. Same thing for remote play and share function...

And like PS3, it will probably decrease during the life cycle of PS4...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I guess if Sony had the foresight to know they were going to use as much as 3.5GB reserved for the system, they might have designed the system differently. I can't but think they should have created it with two SOCs; game one exactly as it is, but with 6GB GDDR5; and a system SOC that's a cheap dual core ARM CPU and it's own separate pool of RAM, but can access the game SOCs RAM too. It'd cost less or a similar amount to create and be able to perform each task much more efficiently.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top