Xbox One (Durango) Technical hardware investigation
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upnorthsox
Veteran
Or he's reeaally close.
Close to what?
Jaguar uses a lot more than the 4 watts they were going off of...
It around 30 watts.. btw..
I doubt it. But many have not looked.
But we are not talking about the same situation.
That chip must be the biggest (by far) and the most expensive ever put in a console. (By area, transistor count and likely price.)
So I do not think it is unreasonable to question the low performance CPU and GPU claims.
We do not know enough yet but the biggest chip does not seem to match with pulling a Nintendo or low performance. I think MS increased their team, talent and capability from 360 Xenon + Xenos SoC APU not the other way around. And by team I mean internal plus external involvements.
Could certainly be proven wrong but looking at the size of that chip I have confidence that the performance is of a similar magnitude.
In four days I expect to get a closer look at the games performance achieved with what looks like the biggest chip ever put into a console. I think it is the biggest in terms of die size, transistor count and cost.
So I will try to infer from that. It would be nice to hear more specs but who knows. We might need to wait for chip delayering and photos from chipworks. But that least you know the die size is not the tiny thing inside the Wii U. You can at least see that now.
Does anyone know if any prior console had a chip anywhere near this size? (Die area/cost budget?)
MS is not going to release specs at E3. It clear they are pulling a nintendo.
Wuu 2.0
As you see with the wuu is was a very smart move to not release specs. Hardcore wuu fans still believe is just some beast. It alway wait until e3... wait until whatever.
Once you release specs there is no hope....
No way it is a Wii U 2.0.
Take a look at the tiny die sizes at 40nm? (not sure):
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6465/nintendo-wii-u-teardown
Wii U
CPU 5.2mm x 6.3mm 32.76mm2 (tri PPC)
GPU 12.3mm x 12.7mm 156.21mm2 (I think the 32MB eDRAM is in here)
That includes 32MB eDRAM. 
Xbox One is 32/28nm and massively bigger die size.
I just don't buy it at all.
anexanhume
Veteran
I do not think so due to my arguments for the use of 1T-SRAM. So others might not agree but I consider 1T-SRAM more likely than 6T or 8T. 80MB 1T is is use at much higher freq in Power 7+ (and later Power 8). 32MB 1T is in Wii U die already, as someone pointed out.
1T-SRAM is a pseudo-static random-access memory (PSRAM) technology introduced by MoSys, Inc., which offers a high-density alternative to traditional static random access memory (SRAM) in embedded memory applications. Mosys uses a single-transistor storage cell (bit cell) like dynamic random access memory (DRAM), but surrounds the bit cell with control circuitry that makes the memory functionally equivalent to SRAM (the controller hides all DRAM-specific operations such as precharging and refresh). 1T-SRAM (and PSRAM in general) has a standard single-cycle SRAM interface and appears to the surrounding logic just as an SRAM would.
Due to its one-transistor bit cell, 1T-SRAM is smaller than conventional (six-transistor, or “6T”) SRAM, and closer in size and density to embedded DRAM (eDRAM). At the same time, 1T-SRAM has performance comparable to SRAM at multi-megabit densities, uses less power than eDRAM and is manufactured in a standard CMOS logic process like conventional SRAM.
MoSyS markets 1T-SRAM as physical IP for embedded (on-die) use in System-on-a-chip (SOC) applications. It is available on a variety of foundry processes, including Chartered, SMIC, TSMC, and UMC.
The evidence doesn't support your claim.
Xbox engineers are on camera saying that their cooling system is designed to cool a chip with a 100W TDP. When you add up Jaguar TDP (25 to 35W) and 7790 TDP (85W), you have nothing left. Even after downclocking the 7790. Nothing.
Anand Shimpi says it's 6T:
https://twitter.com/anandshimpi/status/337296343208972288
And Major Nelson didn't correct the person on twitter with addressing the ESRAM rumor issue.
I think your arguments against 1T are weak. The 100W is a big concern. But the brick looks kind of big for that, but perhaps Kinect 2 pulls power over USB3.
Licensing 1T is not an issue, chips contains licensed physical IP bits all the time. Also there are other 1T out there. Consider 80MB eDRAM in Power 7+ and the fact that 1T-SRAM is eDRAM at the core and that the two get called the same thing in the industry.
I do not see how Shimpi would have any idea what is inside that SoC.
anexanhume
Veteran
Any reason why you completely ignored my specific CPU and GPU numbers?
Why does it not make sense?
If IBM can use 80MB of it why does it not make sense?
If there is 32MB in Wii U why does it not make sense?
Not ignoring it. I am checking out of a hotel in Seattle and running out of time.
I will need to wait for more info until I have more ideas on how the power and transistor count was used.
I might be proven wrong but the die size and transistor count does not make sense to me with just jag and a smallish GPU.
People are trying to tell you and yet you are just plugging your ears, covering your eyes and muttering 'I refuse to believe'. This is a forum for talking about actual tech, confirming and debunking rumors, and sussing out exactly what parts are and what they do.
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Apples and oranges. Different process, not on die.
If they had to maintain another die for edram the long term cost may well have favored using gddr5. By having it on die they can reduce cost with shrinks.
We know the 5B transistor number. We know the power budget. We know the gpu is 12CUs. ESRAM 6T fits, nothing else really does with what we know.
hesido
Regular
I'll probably sound stupid, but if you don't have it on the same die, why can't you reduce costs with shrinks, you could still shrink separate elements? I thought having it on die had something to do with making it ultra-low latency and for lower power requirements.
Bus size has a flat minimum size regardless of process. They might be able to shrink a 400mm die 3x but a 100mm die might only benefit from one shrink.
Don't get your hopes up.
Jaguar + SHAPE?
(((interference)))
Veteran
Yeah, it's not 1T SRAM.
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