Xbox One (Durango) Technical hardware investigation

[sebbbi]

I re-read it like three times and ultimately I can't get around the fact that sebbbi never mentions the ESRAM nor the Xbox One but the potential benefits of the EDRAM on the X360.

That was intentional. There's not enough public information about the Xbox One to discuss about these things yet. Haswell will be the next chip released with a big (read & write) internal memory pool to speed up GPU rendering. We can continue the discussion when we get first benchmarks results of the Haswell model that includes the new 128 MB L4 cache. Or if Microsoft decides to spill more details about the Xbox One memory architecture before that. Of course we can also draw comparisons between those (but not before we have any concrete performance data).

The point of my post was to make an example that big internal chip memories can bring down external bandwidth requirement dramatically, even with the current limited (write only, small 10 MB size) systems.

 

[Rangers]

The point of my post was to make an example that big internal chip memories can bring down external bandwidth requirement dramatically, even with the current limited (write only, small 10 MB size) systems.

Yeah. That's why it's funny to see people act as if Durango only has the 68GB/s.

I'm a tech neophyte and even I could discern the basics. Besides the example of how well the 360 fared with EDRAM+basically half the GPU BW of PS3.

 

[Rangers]

Haswell will be the next chip released with a big (read & write) internal memory pool to speed up GPU rendering. We can continue the discussion when we get first benchmarks results of the Haswell model that includes the new 128 MB L4 cache.

Yeah. I'm not sure how much we'll be able to suss out from that though since IGP's operate in such an incredibly bandwidth starved environment. I have no doubt the difference will be night and day for Haswell.

Or if Microsoft decides to spill more details about the Xbox One memory architecture before that.

If only we could get a successor to the greatest B3D article ever written, the famous Xenos deep dive.

 

[Megadrive1988]

I haven't been keeping up with the latest on Durango / Xbox One due to other obligations but I did catch the reveal on the 21st and did quickly skim through some threads randomly here and there. The thing that surprised me the most was that Xbox One has 5 billion transistors across the entire system, including the new Kinect. Still, that's an awful lot of transistors for a console, around ten times that of Xbox 360.

I immediately began wondering "why so many" and "where were they being used". All I could find is that around 1.6B transistors are taken up by the 32 MB esram on the APU. That still leaves 3.4B. For a console with such a modest 1.2 TFLOP GPU, that's still a rather large amount of transistors.


I'm baffled.

 

[Rangers]

I haven't been keeping up with the latest on Durango / Xbox One due to other obligations but I did catch the reveal on the 21st and did quickly skim through some threads randomly here and there. The thing that surprised me the most was that Xbox One has 5 billion transistors across the entire system, including the new Kinect. Still, that's an awful lot of transistors for a console, around ten times that of Xbox 360.

I immediately began wondering "why so many" and "where were they being used". All I could find is that around 1.6B transistors are taken up by the 32 MB esram on the APU. That still leaves 3.4B. For a console with such a modest 1.2 TFLOP GPU, that's still a rather large amount of transistors.


I'm baffled.

The GPU could be 1.8-2.0.

Not sure on the CPU.

They could also be counting random silicon, most notably the SHAPE audio block.

 

[Rangers]

"Matt", who I remember "knows stuff" although I forget offhand why (he is employed at some gaming related thing though IIRC), at GAF says no Durango upclocks

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=58765345&postcount=117

They didn't up anything.

I dont know that even people in constant contact with dev kits (and IIRC Matt definitely isn't a programmer type) would know right away if they did though.

 

[Neb]

"Matt", who I remember "knows stuff" although I forget offhand why (he is employed at some gaming related thing though IIRC), at GAF says no Durango upclocks

Seems the Xbone got boned... awwwwyeeeah!

 

[Nightz]

The new Jaguar cores don't seem too powerful only achieving 22fps in Left for Dead 2. Which is understandable because the Jaguar cores are low power, designed to compete against ARM chips and thus more likely to be seen in cheap netbooks than desktops.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/23/4357938/amd-jaguar-performance-revealed-kabini-temash

Any idea how they compete against the Expresso in Wii U given the similar clock speed?

 

[Michellstar]

That was intentional. There's not enough public information about the Xbox One to discuss about these things yet. Haswell will be the next chip released with a big (read & write) internal memory pool to speed up GPU rendering. We can continue the discussion when we get first benchmarks results of the Haswell model that includes the new 128 MB L4 cache. Or if Microsoft decides to spill more details about the Xbox One memory architecture before that. Of course we can also draw comparisons between those (but not before we have any concrete performance data).

The point of my post was to make an example that big internal chip memories can bring down external bandwidth requirement dramatically, even with the current limited (write only, small 10 MB size) systems.

Now, we see, (or can speculate) that the direction Ms took was correct, integrating memory close to the gpu, but they got stuck on amd process.

And they end up with a massive esram die space but just 32mb, and the silicon budget gimped the gpu.

Such a pitty that we have silicon interposers, memory cubes, etc just around the corner

 

[Rangers]

Seems the Xbone got boned... awwwwyeeeah!

Interesting I looked at Matt's recent posts just to see if there's anything interesting, in one of them basically he says the Xbox One is current in a bad state in many areas (dev tools etc)

And today on neogaf people posted an article where an Avalanche dev says the same.

I guess kinda OT.

 

[DJ12]

The guy from rad also said the same thing someone posted it in the dev tools thread.

 

[sebbbi]

The new Jaguar cores don't seem too powerful only achieving 22fps in Left for Dead 2. Which is understandable because the Jaguar cores are low power, designed to compete against ARM chips and thus more likely to be seen in cheap netbooks than desktops.

That is the tablet chip (Temash A6-1460). It is clocked at 1.0 GHz CPU and 300 MHz GPU. The notebook/ultraportable Jaguar SOCs are called Kabini, and the top model A4-5200 is clocked twice as high for both CPU and GPU (2.0 GHz CPU / 600 MHz GPU). Assuming linear scaling, Kabini should outperm Temash by around 2x.

 

[Gubbi]

That is the tablet chip (Temash A6-1460). It is clocked at 1.0 GHz CPU and 300 MHz GPU. The notebook/ultraportable Jaguar SOCs are called Kabini, and the top model A4-5200 is clocked twice as high for both CPU and GPU (2.0 GHz CPU / 600 MHz GPU). Assuming linear scaling, Kabini should outperm Temash by around 2x.

Not to mention the GPU only has two CUs. The XB1 has 16 times the GPU grunt, PS4 24 times.

Cheers

 

[bkilian]

Interesting I looked at Matt's recent posts just to see if there's anything interesting, in one of them basically he says the Xbox One is current in a bad state in many areas (dev tools etc)

And today on neogaf people posted an article where an Avalanche dev says the same.

I guess kinda OT.

Well, one of my friends works in the dev tools area. They have a dial drawn on a whiteboard somewhere with their status. It just recently went from "Shitty" to "Partly Shitty"

 

[James Car]

You need to look at this gen, and in particular at the Wii, won the generation hands down, made a profit from day one and was a generation behind PS3 and 360 in terms of graphics. At least MS haven't fully adapted that model and xbox one can still function as a "next gen" console

This success was based on never before seen technology in the console realm (motion controls).

MS already made their move in that department years ago with kinect, so that angle is used up.

ASSuming that MS will have Wii-like success is missing the point of why Wii was successful in the first place (it had nothing to do with the fact that it was the least capable gpu+cpu combo).

While xbone will certainly be capable of playing the same games with 12cu vs the 18cu, it will most certainly be at a disadvantage in the presentation of those games.

 

[DJ12]

We will know but the other 90% of the userbase really won't care

 

[James Car]

If only we could get a successor to the greatest B3D article ever written, the famous Xenos deep dive.

It would be great, but I'm not sure it's worth it.

With xb360, the entire package was custom and cutting edge, both CPU + GPU.

With the xbone, seems rather pedestrian, common, and well known.

Take a look at the jaguar architecture reveals and gcn 7770 from over a year ago ... not much else to see.

 

[AlphaWolf]

It's not a 7770. Calling it one at this point should be a banning offense imo.

 

[DJ12]

As should calling it 7790 or bonaire

Its none of those things but 7770 is the most accurate

 

[James Car]

It's not a 7770. Calling it one at this point should be a banning offense imo.

Seriously?

It's the closest in power and architecture that there is. 7790 is running at a faster clock.

get off your high horse.