Silent_Buddha
Legend
I'm expecting more like 10's of thousands being a "success." I can't see it selling even close to 1 million units in its first year.
Regards,
SB
I'm expecting more like 10's of thousands being a "success." I can't see it selling even close to 1 million units in its first year.
Regards,
SB
There's workarounds for that, like WINE. Valve might be cooking up something similar in-house too. I'm sure they're muchly aware themselves that only a tiny fraction of their library will ever get ported to native linux and are going to be ready with a solution. Assuming anything else would be silly, because valve's a smart bunch of people.
For older games yes, but new games should be native Linux, Newell didn't sound very excited about new Windows app/games ecosystem and if they offer better deals for developers on Steam platform and in the same time offer Steam Linux for all PC users with prospect of better performance, they could have both developers and users on board very quickly.
D
Deleted member 13524
Guest
Microsoft wouldn't sit idle if they saw DirectX being used for Linux games at a large scale.
If Valve would provide something like this they would most likely end with WINE. Maybe some additional tweaks to ship game profiles as part of Steam updates.
The Problem is that it is already hard enough to convince developers doing Windows ports. Therefore the Steambox needs to be a very large success to become attractive for larger developers.
Newell's problem with the new ecosystem is that Valve doesn't get a permission to develop a Steam Client for it. After this was decided he started his public rant about Windows 8.
IIRC there is nothing that Microsoft can do from the legal side as long as the implementer never seen the original implementation code on Windows.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
I'm not sure why he was surprised about that. After all, MS clearly published what could and could not be offered through the MS Store in Win8. And considering Steam offers hundreds of games that would violate those restrictions it was never going to make it.
Which also means, I don't see why Steam should have felt threatened by it. There is some small overlap in games offered, but the majority of the stuff Steam makes money on cannot be offered in the MS Store leaving them (and other online DD vendors) as the only available sources on Win8.
It just reeks of someone throwing a temper tantrum because MS wouldn't change their rules to make an exception just for Valve despite that not impacting Valve's core business in any significant way.
Regards,
SB
Well the offical rules are for companies that are not bold enought to try getting there own agrements. There is always some room for getting exceptions and Valve hopped they could come to some agrements with Microsoft.
Some people say that as a boss of a company you need to think five years ahead. There is a risk that Microsoft will limit the side loading for desktop mode and or add new features only to Metro mode. As Valve makeing most of it's money by selling desktop mode windows games they need to prepare for the case that this would not longer work. If they ignore this risk they could fall very hard.
Blazkowicz
Legend
The idea can be to bait developers into targetting Steam for Linux. Then port this largely unmodified to Windows, using the same APIs and libs (be them OpenGL, SDL, OpenAL etc.), same scripting languages available, and even a build toolchain not too far off with MinGW and MSYS.
Afterall, 95% of what runs on Linux runs on Windows too : from sed, grep, vi, to evince, aucadity, gimp, blender, libreoffice, abiword and so on and so on. Even X11 if you wish. And the big name servers too : Apache/MySQL/PHP, nginx, PostrgresQL, another unending list.
This is a frontal assault on DirectX, which has been the big computer gaming platform those last 15 years.
Well OpenGL is a second class citizen on Windows. Therefore most developers stay away from it. Beside of this development is only the start. Adding a new plattform to the mix would increase the QA and support costs.
Blazkowicz
Legend
Is there yet again a Microsoft conspiracy to kill OpenGL on Windows? Or a conspiracy theory because drivers have to be slightly updated for Windows 8?
Given Photoshop and stuff like Autocad use it I don't think they will be able to kill it off. With every new Windows version since forever there's a claim that OpenGL is deprecated, is limited to version 1.1 or 1.4 or something, will be slow because it is forced to go through a layer etc. and every time the vendors route around it.
If you merely mean that OpenGL is inferior to DirectX then I can agree
I wonder what is the minimum graphics card to support OpenGL 4.x from each vendor (and for 4.0, 4.1, 4.2 etc.), ditto for 3.x. Determining that is complicated and does not automatically map with feature levels I think, whereas Microsoft has the advantages of cards being described as DX9, DX10, DX11 etc.
Given Photoshop and stuff like Autocad use it I don't think they will be able to kill it off. With every new Windows version since forever there's a claim that OpenGL is deprecated, is limited to version 1.1 or 1.4 or something, will be slow because it is forced to go through a layer etc. and every time the vendors route around it.
If you merely mean that OpenGL is inferior to DirectX then I can agree
I wonder what is the minimum graphics card to support OpenGL 4.x from each vendor (and for 4.0, 4.1, 4.2 etc.), ditto for 3.x. Determining that is complicated and does not automatically map with feature levels I think, whereas Microsoft has the advantages of cards being described as DX9, DX10, DX11 etc.
I seriously doubt that. There's not a single game from a big publisher that's been announced as native linux AFAIK, most big-publisher games don't even come out in a Mac version, and OSX is far more common in desktops and notebooks than linux is. Amongst indies, sure, more games will start coming out in native linux versions, but still far far from all because most people won't be experienced with the OS and thus won't be able to port it or even see a point in porting it.
It's Newell's job as head honch of valve to poo-poo windows 8, because of the integrated MS app store which competes directly with his company's offering. Even though I consider Newell a hugely smart guy, I wouldn't consider any noise from him that implies windows is losing its strategic, critical importance on the PC as at all credible...
All MS could do would be to grind their teeth in frustration and repatedly clench their fists, because you can't claim copyright on APIs, only actual code. Legally they wouldn't have a leg to stand on in attacking WINE or any similar effort. In fact, since WINE has existed for so many years now without MS doing anything about it, if there HAD ever been a copyright on windows APIs, it would have been nulled and voided by now through MS inaction.
D
Deleted member 13524
Guest
All I said was that Microsoft wouldn't sit idle.
They can just implement some structural changes in DirectX 12 that somehow prevents wine from from working at all, or just working at acceptable performance levels.
And then, some developers can only boycott DX12 for "honorable reasons" (as many of them did with DX10 because of Vista) for so much time. At some point, someone will start taking advantage of the extra features and eventually everyone will follow to DX12 or even DX13.
Trying to get all current and future DirectX title working correctly in Linux is a lost cause, IMO.
Either Valve convinces everyone to jump into the OpenGL bandwagon (unlikely), or they'll just loose a lot more than what they have to gain.
AFAICS, it's a bit stupid for Valve to declare such a war on Windows 8 because of the integrated app store. Steam has a huge list of loyal clients, everyone has hundreds of purchased games that will only work through their platform. If the Steam users just keep buying their games through the Steam store, the Windows 8 app store won't change that, not even in 10 years.
Valve should be more worried about providing a better service in Steam and getting good games out (like some titles that seem to be in development hell i.e. HL3/ep3). No matter how big they are or how powerful they think they can be, declaring an all-out war on Windows isn't a smart thing to do.
They can just implement some structural changes in DirectX 12 that somehow prevents wine from from working at all, or just working at acceptable performance levels.
And then, some developers can only boycott DX12 for "honorable reasons" (as many of them did with DX10 because of Vista) for so much time. At some point, someone will start taking advantage of the extra features and eventually everyone will follow to DX12 or even DX13.
Trying to get all current and future DirectX title working correctly in Linux is a lost cause, IMO.
Either Valve convinces everyone to jump into the OpenGL bandwagon (unlikely), or they'll just loose a lot more than what they have to gain.
AFAICS, it's a bit stupid for Valve to declare such a war on Windows 8 because of the integrated app store. Steam has a huge list of loyal clients, everyone has hundreds of purchased games that will only work through their platform. If the Steam users just keep buying their games through the Steam store, the Windows 8 app store won't change that, not even in 10 years.
Valve should be more worried about providing a better service in Steam and getting good games out (like some titles that seem to be in development hell i.e. HL3/ep3). No matter how big they are or how powerful they think they can be, declaring an all-out war on Windows isn't a smart thing to do.
Gabe is trying to beat Apple, not the consoles. Weird.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidth...-warns-that-games-consoles-should-fear-apple/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidth...-warns-that-games-consoles-should-fear-apple/
There is full ICD support for OpenGL in Windows and the vendors don't need to route around anything.The problem is that there are no OpenGL drivers in the drivers that are shipped with the installation and Windows Update doesn't offer them, too.
While this is not a problem for "pro" users/player it is a big problem for many others. Therefore most devlopers try to avoid the problems that are caused by this.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
But surely that's only really a problem with upgrading your own computer to a newer version of Windows. And game developer's could be proactive and try to detect if OGL is present, and if it isn't give the user helpful hints that they should install the latest video card driver along with links to the IHV's websites.
Otherwise OEM vendors will presumably install the latest vendor drivers at the time of product launch which should include OGL drivers.
Regards,
SB
you might want to rethink that, the 2 biggest game companies are ea & activision right, so I checked their most recent finanical records
Activision - lump pc&mobile together so you cant tell but
EA -
pc (including browser & mac) $148million
smartphone/tablet $79million
Now once you ignore browser/mac & see how much faster mobile is growing compared to PC, within 12 months opengl (99% of mobile/mac stuff is opengl) will play a larger role than directx.
Why support both API's?
opengl is the only game in town at the moment for smartphones (ignoring the ~1% WinPhone)
So you need to use opengl, and it also runs on mac & windows
Interestingly
heres the current top played games at the moment on steam (the number is the ppl currently playing)
193,010 238,429 Dota 2
73,288 73,288 Football Manager 2013
51,287 59,217 Counter-Strike
Just looked up, with Dota 2 opengl is the default API on windows & of course is the only way to play on mac.
Im not saying directx is dying, but its certainly not the goliath it once was & is perhaps not the best API from a business POV
Difficult to see how that would be possible or feasible, especially as OpenGL equivalent of any future DX12 version would by necessity have to work in a roughly similar manner, like with previous DX/OGL versions (since they both have to operate on common hardware.)
MS tends to eat your lunch with proprietary crap if you let them, for example by ignoring them and what they do, like what happened with IE6 way back when when MS partly managed to take over the internet with a default web browser that interpreted HTML specs the way it wanted rather than the way it was supposed to...
Silent_Buddha
Legend
I somehow fail to see AAA games at ~8-30 GB being developed with smartphones as a primary or even tertiary target.
And it's the AAA style games that really benefit from DirectX's advantages over OGL for cutting edge graphics.
And yes, those games you mentioned are nice, but they certainly aren't even close to cutting edge graphics. The top one also happens to be a F2P game. The only argument that could be made with those games isn't the use of OGL, but the fact that perhaps pushing graphics isn't the best way to garner sales.
Perhaps it would be best to just go to 8-bit style games (popular at the moment) or more simplistic rendering styles (smartphone type games) or just more simplistic casual games period (smartphones again).
I'm sure that'd make many of us pretty sad pandas though. And oh god, I really don't wish to go back to the days when OGL was a dominant 3D gaming API. And then having to wonder whether your graphics card supported this vendor specific extension or that GPU specific extension, etc. if you wanted to play any game that actually pushed the 3D rendering envelope.
Regards,
SB
Silent_Buddha
Legend
It was at least as bad on the developer side if that can comfort you...
Yeah, I can only imagine the headaches this caused developers having read some myself. Even Carmack had commented on such difficulties.
Regards,
SB
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