Gabe Newell: Valve will release its own console-like PC

[dobwal]

Nvidia already released a new set of Linux drivers in nov that supposedly doubled performance. The driver development was done in collaboration with Valve and other developers and was tested with Steam on Linux.

Ultimately a Steam OS makes sense as it could be catered to gaming and other features that's becoming more and more relevant with consoles and htpcs.

I see the Steam Box as a way to cater to casuals or gamers that wants a box that provides a console like hassle free experience. Steam on Linux would provide for a more customizable experience that's suited to deal with the desires and needs of more experienced and savvy pc gamers. It's an attempt to satisfy both demographics with the whole landscape tied to Steam.

I could see MS doing the same with windows and it's consoles where the titles sold over live just recognize the hardware and download the appropriate ports (both if your profile is tied to both a console and pc) and everything is tied into one ecosystem including multiplayer.

 

[Demirug]

That's why I could see some area of possibility of success with a Steam branded locked down Windows box (potentially all the benefits of Windows PC gaming without the headache), but have a hard time seeing a potential upside for a Linux based open hardware box.

I am not sure if Microsoft allows you to lock down a preinstallled consumer Windows to such a level. It should be possible with an embeded version but it might have compatibility issues with games then.

Haveing an OS with a much larger base on exsiting games could help. But in the end it would be just another console if the OS is locked down. So I could only see some possibibilitz of success if Valve try to aim for a new segment of high end consoles that doesn't exsist yet.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

The problem is the whole "casuals" bit. Sure it sounds great for casuals but a price noticeably higher than either Durango (Kinect is great for casual games), PS4 or WiiU, will any casuals actually be interested?

And if it's targetting casuals, why would they choose a Steam Box over one of the Android linux boxes which theoretically support a large library of casual games right out of the box. Especially when you consider that a game on Android that goes for 0.99-1.99 USD is sold through steam for 4.99 - 9.99 USD on average.

It's highly doubtful that any casuals will be picking up a Steam box. It's pretty much going to be relegated to enthusiast type games, IMO.

Regards,
SB

 

[dobwal]

The problem is the whole "casuals" bit. Sure it sounds great for casuals but a price noticeably higher than either Durango (Kinect is great for casual games), PS4 or WiiU, will any casuals actually be interested?

And if it's targetting casuals, why would they choose a Steam Box over one of the Android linux boxes which theoretically support a large library of casual games right out of the box. Especially when you consider that a game on Android that goes for 0.99-1.99 USD is sold through steam for 4.99 - 9.99 USD on average.

It's highly doubtful that any casuals will be picking up a Steam box. It's pretty much going to be relegated to enthusiast type games, IMO.

Regards,
SB

That's a question of marketing and perception. You look at the SteamBox as a Linux PC and regardless of how many of us here perceive Steam, Valve and Linux doesn't mean Valve can't create an alternative image for how the SteamBox is perceived by the general gaming market. Valve can market it as a console to casuals as well as mainstream gamers who might buy a 360 or PS3.

Furthermore, casuals can see the obvious difference between a console game and an android game. The dominant motivation for most casuals who purchased a console isn't PSN or Xbox Live arcade. Consoles have a rather significant portion of their userbase made of casuals and console marketing is centered and mostly built around enthusiast type titles.

Who is actually targeted will ultimately determine how the Steam Box is marketed. The reality is there have been 225-230 million purchases of current gen consoles. The SteamBox only needs a fraction of those purchases to be successful.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

That's a question of marketing and perception. You look at the SteamBox as a Linux PC and regardless of how many of us here perceive Steam, Valve and Linux doesn't mean Valve can't create an alternative image for how the SteamBox is perceived by the general gaming market. Valve can market it as a console to casuals as well as mainstream gamers who might buy a 360 or PS3.

Furthermore, casuals can see the obvious difference between a console game and an android game. The dominant motivation for most casuals who purchased a console isn't PSN or Xbox Live arcade. Consoles have a rather significant portion of their userbase made of casuals and console marketing is centered and mostly built around enthusiast type titles.

Who is actually targeted will ultimately determine how the Steam Box is marketed. The reality is there have been 225-230 million purchases of current gen consoles. The SteamBox only needs a fraction of those purchases to be successful.

Market can certainly help or hinder obviously. But if the Durango w/Kinect is 299-399 while the Steambox is 699-999, I'm extremely doubtful that any casual gamer is going to even give the Steam box a second glance.

Or look at it another way. Look at how difficult it was to move PS3s at 599 compared to X360s at 499. That was an established brand with a large casual and core following from PS2.

IMO, there's no amount of marketing that could make a Steam box attractive to casual gamers if the price point is much higher than Durango/Orbis/WiiU.

Regards,
SB

 

[AlphaWolf]

If they want to sell to casuals they need product in Walmart, target best buy etc. These places won't be carrying a low margin product with 0 software upside, so good luck with that.

 

[zed]

Nvidia already released a new set of Linux drivers in nov that supposedly doubled performance.

Ive gotta call bunk on that, nvidia's linux/windows drivers have been roughly the same performance ~5% for years. So how can linux suddenly become twice as fast as windows? Not happening.

Also Steambox will be ~$300

Also casuals? I think they'ld be aiming at the start at their existing user-base

 

[Blazkowicz]

IMO, there's no amount of marketing that could make a Steam box attractive to casual gamers if the price point is much higher than Durango/Orbis/WiiU.

Regards,
SB

Maybe a simple thing : comes out of the box with a wireless keyboard, and some pointing device (maybe both trackpad and mouse). plus a controller certainly.
So here is it, you can do youtube, chat and whatever.

And it's all supported.. People could hook up a PC to their TV themselves, but to them it's "tinkering", or they are irrationnally afraid of doing something wrong, or they think it's ugly, too big etc.
Or they use a laptop with hdmi but it's not the same that having a dedicated computer hooked to the TV, and properly made for games.

The Linux woes would be absent : hardware and software are supplied by Valve (at almost no cost of development for them), so all the crap is sorted out before it reaches the shelf, no problem of "this abc hardware craps out with that xyz hardware". Just like say a commercial consumer NAS, even if it's a tad more complex here.
If anything, they could say it's easier than dealing with Windows, its crapware (Norton 60-day, etc.) and it nagging you to reboot because all software updates require it.

 

[dobwal]

Ive gotta call bunk on that, nvidia's linux/windows drivers have been roughly the same performance ~5% for years. So how can linux suddenly become twice as fast as windows? Not happening.

Also Steambox will be ~$300

Also casuals? I think they'ld be aiming at the start at their existing user-base

Double as double the performance of previous Linux drivers.

Why would Valve spend millions trying to convert the converted. If you have Steam and use it as your primary resource to buy games then valve has already has u tied into the most lucrative part a gaming business for platform providers. Consoles themselves are there to lock u into a ecosystem not act as a profit center. It's all expanding the user base.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Maybe a simple thing : comes out of the box with a wireless keyboard, and some pointing device (maybe both trackpad and mouse). plus a controller certainly.
So here is it, you can do youtube, chat and whatever.

But you already have that with consoles that will be far cheaper than the proposed Steam box. The only thing missing currently a more universally available chat system. But Skype addresses that quite well. Youtube, web browsing, social networking, etc. all work on current consoles. I haven't tried it, but in theory I'm guessing you could use Google services on Xbox 360 to even do some light desktop/office type work. But if IE on Xbox is too lightweight for that, I can't imagine you wouldn't be able to do it on Durango.

And it's all supported.. People could hook up a PC to their TV themselves, but to them it's "tinkering", or they are irrationnally afraid of doing something wrong, or they think it's ugly, too big etc.
Or they use a laptop with hdmi but it's not the same that having a dedicated computer hooked to the TV, and properly made for games.

The Linux woes would be absent : hardware and software are supplied by Valve (at almost no cost of development for them), so all the crap is sorted out before it reaches the shelf, no problem of "this abc hardware craps out with that xyz hardware". Just like say a commercial consumer NAS, even if it's a tad more complex here.
If anything, they could say it's easier than dealing with Windows, its crapware (Norton 60-day, etc.) and it nagging you to reboot because all software updates require it.

If it's about using PC centric apps, then people that want to do that are likely already doing it. And going by the rumors released about Durango at least, it's plausible to assume that some traditionally desktop type apps will be making it over to that system.

As I said, I'd love to have Valve succeed in this as it would potentially mean more PC first game developement (both Linux and Windows), but I just can't see where they could gain a significant foothold considering what they have said so far.

Regards,
SB

 

[Blazkowicz]

Double as double the performance of previous Linux drivers.

On a specific game too, and a Valve one, an internal version whose OpenGL renderer was being updated :

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/nv...-performance-boost-to-linux-gaming-2012-11-06
(1) Comparing 304.51 driver performance of 142.7 fps versus 310.14 driver performance of 301.4 fps in beta build of Left for Dead 2. All tests run on the same system using Intel Core i7-3930K CPU @ 3.20GHz with 8 GB memory, GeForce GTX 680 and Ubuntu 12.04 32-bit.

So Valve and nvidia collaborated on this. Concluding "driver y is twice faster than driver x" is just buying the PR. I would even compare it to Quadro/FireGL specific optimisations in big software.
It's a CPU limited game too, I think (the Half-Life 2 engine in general likes a nice CPU and a modest GPU)


There's no bad news for gamers on this , the same or similar stuff has been happening on Windows for years, even rendering bugs are often corrected for by detecting a running game and having some game-specific code run in the driver. It's a series of hacks, though.

 

[Blazkowicz]

If it's about using PC centric apps, then people that want to do that are likely already doing it. And going by the rumors released about Durango at least, it's plausible to assume that some traditionally desktop type apps will be making it over to that system.

As I said, I'd love to have Valve succeed in this as it would potentially mean more PC first game developement (both Linux and Windows), but I just can't see where they could gain a significant foothold considering what they have said so far.

Regards,
SB

You're right that Durango will do a a lot for "PC" or "desktop" centric apps. Full web browsing is likely a given, and as for apps they might even sell Office, in a "family and students" version or a version identical to what's on Surface ARM.
For instance it is used in a student dorm : it's useful to have a console that also works as a computer.

The Steam box would do the same, with some common and some different styles of games (no Kinect party games, but online RPGs with keyboard chat)
It's also more versatile for a student : I doubt Microsoft will offer a C compiler, linker, make etc. and a bash shell to do your beginner assignments, a Matlab clone, and so on .

People who want to do that are already doing it? Sure but I'd say they do this on a laptop (which come in many versions : genitals cooking, missing keys, blacklight bleeding like hell, very small)
They're not exclusive, people may use both a computer/console and a small laptop or tablet with keyboard.

That's not to say Microsoft won't sell 20x more units than Valve, or whatever the number is.

 

[trinibwoy]

or they think it's ugly, too big etc.

That's me right there. I used to drag my PC out to the living room but then I grew up and realized how ridiculous it looked

 

[zed]

So Valve and nvidia collaborated on this. Concluding "driver y is twice faster than driver x" is just buying the PR.

And also when youre comparing high FPS, the little things can make a huge difference

Ive written stuff on linux and windows (exact same program) and I can tell you theres bugger all difference in performance between the two platforms, thus if the linux version suddenly doubles in performance I assume the windows one will as well & we would of heard about that.
then again perhaps the steamOS linux is some 'unsafe' 'to the metal' OS that uses some special opengl exclusive driver calls(*) for specific hardware in that case yes perhaps a doubling of performance is possible.

(*)which does make sense on a steambox as all the GPU's will be the same

 

[Silent_Buddha]

That's me right there. I used to drag my PC out to the living room but then I grew up and realized how ridiculous it looked

My HTPC is in another room entirely. I want pure silence and an uncluttered space in the living room. I could probably make a completely passive and attractive looking HTPC for the living room if I wanted, but since mine does double duty as a WHS machine, I just stick it in another room and game on the TV in the living room.

Regards,
SB

 

[Blazkowicz]

then again perhaps the steamOS linux is some 'unsafe' 'to the metal' OS that uses some special opengl exclusive driver calls(*) for specific hardware in that case yes perhaps a doubling of performance is possible.

(*)which does make sense on a steambox as all the GPU's will be the same

Nvidia linux drivers are known to replace crummy parts of the graphics stack, stuff like GLX and part of the Xorg server. I don't understand that much. It's been like that for ages.
They may get rid of Xorg and use Wayland, then some bureaucracy goes away (but this is not very nvidia specific)

The wildest thing I can imagine is they use FreeBSD for the steambox. This OS has the very same nvidia driver, has recently gained the ability to run the Intel driver, can run linux binaries. But it's probably pointless. Valve would just concentrate support on Ubuntu and that's it?

You might be able to run Steam for Linux on FreeBSD in an unsupported manner and that's it (as well as on non ubuntu distros)
Also for the steambox itself, they're free to run as small a subset of Ubuntu software as they want.

Stuff that is well known : With every Ubuntu version you can grab the mini.iso installer, do a "command line" install (grabbing all packages from network) and you end up with a system with no graphics, no sound, no graphical programs ; but with most shell tools you need or don't need, and networking. Then you can add stuff with only apt-get install and get the latest "Ubuntu" to do something useful on a crap computer. (latest Ubuntu needs PAE so I suggest you use at least a Pentium II )

 

[dobwal]

On a specific game too, and a Valve one, an internal version whose OpenGL renderer was being updated :

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/nv...-performance-boost-to-linux-gaming-2012-11-06
(1) Comparing 304.51 driver performance of 142.7 fps versus 310.14 driver performance of 301.4 fps in beta build of Left for Dead 2. All tests run on the same system using Intel Core i7-3930K CPU @ 3.20GHz with 8 GB memory, GeForce GTX 680 and Ubuntu 12.04 32-bit.

So Valve and nvidia collaborated on this. Concluding "driver y is twice faster than driver x" is just buying the PR. I would even compare it to Quadro/FireGL specific optimisations in big software.
It's a CPU limited game too, I think (the Half-Life 2 engine in general likes a nice CPU and a modest GPU)


There's no bad news for gamers on this , the same or similar stuff has been happening on Windows for years, even rendering bugs are often corrected for by detecting a running game and having some game-specific code run in the driver. It's a series of hacks, though.

Hence my original post. "Nvidia already released a new set of Linux drivers in nov that supposedly doubled performance."

 

[novcze]

What do you think guys, should Valve co-operate with only one hw. manufacturer or more? IMO it depends on plans they have, console like brand recognition or some sort of certification only?

As I see (or would like to see) pros and cons of the SteamBox:

pros
- provide performance target for developers, same for all models of the SteamBox (if there are more models)
- quite powerful, more than PS4/XB720
- Linux as OS - more resources available for developers, e.g. less memory taken by OS, less background tasks,...
- custom drivers (nVidia GPU)
- Windows can be installed
- targeted at core gamers

cons
- higher price
- no optical drive

I think there is market for high-end console and Valve should focus on that segment, Sony is out of touch with their customers, e.g., MS going low power + Kinect2, many core gamers could resolve to PC gaming or SteamBox.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Linux as OS is a bigger con than a pro right now. Serious lack of software, if millions don't buy, that won't improve.

 

[Babel-17]

I might have missed somebody posting this but I think a Steam Box has a great secret weapon.

The weapon being that for very little cost it can come bundled with lots and lots of games that are suitable to younger kids.
If you are, for example, a single mom, you can make the one time purchase of a Steam Box with bundled games and then just relax.

Pretty much everyone knows if you buy an unemployed child a regular console you are also ensuring lots of future, expensive, purchases on their behalf.

Edit: I wonder if they are aware of the potential for different bundles.