NGGP: NextGen Garbage Pile (aka: No one reads the topics or stays on topic) *spawn*

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Sony seems to be placing their bets on the core gamers first and foremost...

I see little (if any) evidence to support this. To wit, I see Sony trying to follow MS's lead in this area by bundling motion cameras in every box and further trying to update their media feature set. They played catch up in this area most of this current cycle after all. You can even see specific rumors out there talking about how they will push the platform services as the selling point instead of exclusive gaming features. I see their approach here as slightly more conservative, but only because I think MS is in a much more fortified position to be ambitious in that space than Sony is atm. They have the money, the connections, and the inroads with the consumer base to go further with this stuff than Sony does atm.

It seems Microsoft is trying a different strategy by trying to appeal to the Apple fans and casuals of the world first and foremost (i.e., mass appeal from the get go).

I also disagree here. I don't see anything in Durango as a platform that suggests gamers are being left out in the cold. That viewpoint is largely founded on ignorance related to MS's publishing strategy of mitigating risk late cycle and the presumption that the specs for next gen GPU's (and GPU's only) are to be compared in a direct, straight forward way. There is a middleground, whether you'll admit it or not, which is that MS wants to dominate all demographics and has the positioning and cash to forge ambitions aiming to achieve as much, even if that means carefully engineering an unorthodox platform that punches above its weight.

But don't kid yourself with the "special sauce" stuff.

When the GPU specs were first leaked before ppl talked about DME's or display planes or eSRAM or the CPU performance boost we just heard about...before all of that ever popped up a narrative emerged that painted Durango as a weak console and the second bkillian mentioned extra hardware blocks ppl desperate to cling to the initial sentiment started mocking the idea that additional hardware could actually make a difference. And today the more we find out the smaller that initial performance gap dwindles. Don't mock the ppl who were open minded enough to suggest that might happen.

The Multi-media and new interface interactivity aspects of their machine necessitate a large volume of ram (8 gb) at the expense of ram performance that would be useful for gaming situations.

This isn't necessarily true. I mentioned this to Brad. You can leverage very high end, relatively new rendering tech (virtualized assets) that are known to play big roles in future game engines in a way that strongly prefers more RAM to faster RAM. At least that is what I recall reading. If I am wrong there explain why but spare me a reply aimed at being condescending.

I think the contention that one is significantly more powerful than the other flies right in the face of what insiders and actual devs have said on the subject. I think if you gather all the semi-reliable info together you start seeing a picture of MS going all in on a design to leverage virtualized assets in ways Orbis isn't. We will see. Hopefully soon-ish. :cool:
 
Enlighten us because every spec from vgleaks do not point to different CPUs.

They're basically the same spec reworded and some things missing from Orbis and some missing from Durango. Orbis specs are more detailed, but nevertheless.

To make your life simple here's the vgleaks specs



Durango
- x64 Architecture
- 8 CPU cores running at 1.6 gigahertz (GHz)
- each CPU thread has its own 32 KB L1 instruction cache and 32 KB L1 data cache
- each module of four CPU cores has a 2 MB L2 cache resulting in a total of 4 MB of L2 cache
- each core has one fully independent hardware thread with no shared execution resources
- each hardware thread can issue two instructions per clock

Orbis

  • Orbis contains eight Jaguar cores at 1.6 Ghz, arranged as two “clusters”
  • Each cluster contains 4 cores and a shared 2MB L2 cache
  • 256-bit SIMD operations, 128-bit SIMD ALU
  • SSE up to SSE4, as well as Advanced Vector Extensions (AVX)
  • One hardware thread per core
  • Decodes, executes and retires at up to two intructions/cycle
  • Out of order execution
  • Per-core dedicated L1-I and L1-D cache (32Kb each)
  • Two pipes per core yield 12,8 GFlops performance
  • 102.4 GFlops for system


yes, the same CPU but two different VGleaks sources so then two different technical jargon
 
Your argument assumes that those specs are to be interpreted in a very particular context that is based on the premise I described.

No. It doesn't. I've taken the specs as they've been reported and explained what function they would have in that system. The motivations behind the design decisions don't enter into my argument whatsoever, no matter how many times you attempt to drag it into the equation. It's obvious you are not equipped to even understand, let alone dispute the substance of my argument, so keep in mind this will be my last response to you.

This is another assertion...please back it up with evidence/logic. I am eager to learn more about virtualized assets, but I am not sure I recall many arguing that Orbis' GPU would automatically handle that approach on par with a setup built very specifically to leverage it. Why do you assert this as fact? Just because Orbis' GPU is supposedly based on a 7970 which has PRT support in its hardware? Or is there something more substantial? :?:

Why are virtualized assets good on Durango? Because it limits the amount of mesh or texture data you have to access for any given frame. That's pretty useful if the amount of high speed RAM you have is very small, and making your system run at peak efficiency requires quickly moving data into a small scratchpad of on die memory. That said, even in a system where moving data around isn't key, only accessing the part of a mesh or texture you actually need will save bandwidth and improve performance. So it smartly avoids limitations that exists in the Durango to give near peak performance, while simultaneously improving performance on Orbis by minimizing unnecessary memory access. So what have we learned? Just because a technique is well suited to Durango, does not mean it is ill suited to Orbis.

This is a rhetorical gimmick. Just because you can mirror the structure of my comment there doesn't mean your argument is actually countering my concern. As has been pointed out to you, your entire perspective is couched in an assumption you've yet to justify. Just because extra kit in Durango improves the system (duh?) doesn't suggest they only included it because they were trying to close some performance gap with a machine they knew nothing about at the time.

It wasn't a rhetorical gimmick. I was calling you out on your obvious hypocrisy you ass. YOUR entire argument assumes I must be irrational, and hinges on a misreading I've already corrected for you. YOUR first post accused me of being blind to reality. This is rich, considering you are challenging me on technical aspects you clearly don't understand. YOUR entire tactic has been to attack my character and invent false motivations to draw my analysis (which you couldn't follow) into doubt. YOU went on for PARAGRAPHS describing your fantasy scenario of how I arrived at my conclusions, always relying on motivations (for me and Microsoft) that literally never entered in to my argument at all. Perhaps it's time YOU read YOUR OWN condescending posts out loud, step away from the computer and reexamine YOUR motivations.
 
So now the Xcpu has *more* than twice as many flops as the vanilla jaguar. If true, I'm a bit disappointed in Sony. They had always used cpu centric designs in their consoles...
I have to wonder why though? We have DSPs for handling audio. Video hardware for video decompression. We've got memory move architectures and decompression architectures and knives and sharp sticks. How much CPU power is going to be needed to run the meat and potatoes of the game? There seems less need for high CPU throughput. :???:
 
Capturing the user and depth perception are one thing, but you said 3D augmented reality. That is capturing a person in 3D for replication on a 3D TV.
We're talking about stereoscopic vision in a console integrating AR with the play area. Why make the leap to think anyone's talking about 3D scanning? You don't even needed human-equivalent interaxial camera spacing for 3D object scanning, so that bares no relation to what I was saying about the distance between cameras in Orbis. The only reason to stick to a ~7 cm camera separation is if you want to match human viewing 3D in what's displayed on the TV.

Business is also about not throwing away money and unnecessary things.
Having the cameras on a separate extension to the console isn't an unnecessary thing; it's pretty much essential. Wii didn't put the sensor bar in the console but had it on a wire extension to place it as needed. If Sony stick the camera in the base unit, they'll alienate themselves from lots of customers - people like me with no room in front of their TV to sit a console or DVR or disc player. I'm not going to redesign the living room to fit any CE device, and I won't be alone in that. Whatever added costs moving stereo cameras and four mics to an external unit would cost ($5? $10?), the cost of not doing that would be a killer blow to the platform.

What fan noise? You've not seen the console!
You think PS4 is a fanless system? And the drive is silent too, huh? And the HDD, I guess, mounted on rubber grommets and with sound dampening materials, to stop vibrations passing through the chassis and case into the microphones.

Noise cancelling technology is also cheap.
I point you to bkilian's post on Kinect.
 
ummm, what's the news exactly about the CPU? so there's this on NeoGAF

Passing along some info I just posted on B3D.

Xbox 3's CPU from a FLOPs perspective seems it may have as much as double the performance of "vanilla" Jaguar cores.

If it's just about a total number of FLOPS, then you know, a "vanilla" Jaguar as found on a PC part has four cores versus eight on the Xbox so there's your 2x difference.
Alternatively, someone thought the Xbox's Jaguar would run 256bit instructions and that's twice bigger than 128bit.. All Jaguars do. The FPU is still 128bit wide.
 
We're talking about stereoscopic vision in a console integrating AR with the play area. Why make the leap to think anyone's talking about 3D scanning?
Because you brought up "3D augmented reality" in this post. In my response I said I didn't believe this to be the case. Am I the only one of us reading what you write? :oops: You only need to capture an image in 3D for two reasons: 1) to replicate that image on a 3D TV for 3D augmented reality (what you said) or 2) for depth perception. For the latter, the distance between two cameras does not matter as I stated in this post.
Having the cameras on a separate extension to the console isn't an unnecessary thing; it's pretty much essential.
Having motion control out of the box is unnecessary. My argument is that this will only likely happen if they can do it cheap, which they can by putting sensors into the console itself.
You think PS4 is a fanless system? And the drive is silent too, huh? And the HDD, I guess, mounted on rubber grommets and with sound dampening materials, to stop vibrations passing through the chassis and case into the microphones.
I guess you've never seen and not heard a MacMini? Because I have a quadcore i7 and two HDD RAID array in mine and you know what? I never hear it - including the fan. By the way, the types of mics they'd use are directional. They current mics are directional because they don't want to pick up the ambient noise around them, like from A/V equipment and the TV :rolleyes: These types of problems were solved years ago.
 
Because you brought up "3D augmented reality" in this post. In my response I said I didn't believe this to be the case. Am I the only one of us reading what you write?
Apparently I'm the only one following the discussion...
You only need to capture an image in 3D for two reasons: 1) to replicate that image on a 3D TV for 3D augmented reality (what you said) or 2) for depth perception. For the latter, the distance between two cameras does not matter as I stated in this post.
Or BOTH which is what I was saying. The cameras in Orbis would be for depth perception and a 3D view of the living room - it wants to track the player in the 3D space of their living room and integrate that in 3D inside the TV with game augmentations. It makes little sense to have stereoscopic vision but not enable 3D video capture, unless Sony are giving up on 3D displays.

Having motion control out of the box is unnecessary.
The success of Wii and Kinect suggests otherwise. It'd be a brave move to ignore that and leave your competitor that space completely unchallenged. Sony had prior success with motion gaming and have a strong RnD arm developing motion interfaces, even producing a PR video of what they hoped to achieve. You may not like 'motion gaming' (although a voice and camera interface enables far more than that) and a lot of gamers may not like it, but there are many millions of potential customers who will value it making in-the-box motion gaming a valid business option.

I guess you've never seen and not heard a MacMini?
One minute your talking about Sony being unable to afford anything costly, and the next you're talking about expensive sound-reduction engineering. Do you use your Mac Mini with your ear on the case feeling the vibrations? Because that's what a mic is experiencing as that's what needs to be solved with in-the-case microphones.

By the way, the types of mics they'd use are directional. They current mics are directional because they don't want to pick up the ambient noise around them
No microphone is immune to direct vibrations! The mics in a console for audio input also don't want to be directional as they need to hear the user no matter where they are in the room. That's why a microphone array is used, to isolate the voice from all the other noises.

These types of problems were solved years ago.
So when bkilian says they have the world's first and only open mic with a fan attached, and mentions a static tone remover would work but be daft (it won't deal with non-constant vibrations from HDD and optical), is he lying? Or just being an idiot, because all Kinect needs is a directional mic and that solves all background noise and vibration issues?
 
No, they are not.

Cell is the product of a IBM, Sony and Toshiba collaboration. That's as far as it goes.

No, claiming Sony can include hardware while at the same time saving money is silly. That isn't how the world works - not even wearing fanboy rose-tinted glasses.


They have agreements since 2001..;) Even less..

Exactly why would sony share a design of a CPU that will go into its consoles with another Japanese electronics company.?

Yes it is like that sony had factory to manufacture blu-ray and most of the blu-ray make are for the PS3 not stand alone,is funny but unlike the 360 which has drives,from Samsung,Benq and several other brand the PS3 doesn't if sony has to outsource those why not go cheap.?

Oh yeah because they make the parts already they were getting it cheap,sony has a long history of manufacturing many of the parts they use on their electronics.
 
Toshiba worked with Sony on the development of the PS2, if i recall correctly.
 
ummm, what's the news exactly about the CPU? so there's this on NeoGAF



If it's just about a total number of FLOPS, then you know, a "vanilla" Jaguar as found on a PC part has four cores versus eight on the Xbox so there's your 2x difference.
Alternatively, someone thought the Xbox's Jaguar would run 256bit instructions and that's twice bigger than 128bit.. All Jaguars do. The FPU is still 128bit wide.

I say that yesterday,vanilla jaguar is not 8 cores is from 2 to 4 cores,so maybe that apply to Orbis as well.
 
And Toshiba always had a strong cooperation with Rambus. I guess that is one of the reasons why Sony used Rambus for PS2 and PS3. Toshiba just licensed Rambus memory controller technology until 2016.
 
Use the search function. And deve kits with its documentation where do you think came from?

I think they are separate sources, but the same/similar documents. There is a rumour that early dev kits where like kit cars. Microsoft just supplied a spec sheet to which developers built the dev kit to. SuperDaE's documents/dev kit spec sheet could be from an Australian Developer? (He seems to have links there)

VGleaks I think are based in Spain. I'd say it more likely their documents come from a more local source.

They may have communicated and compared documents..........who knows.

I'm probably completely wrong though.
 
There is a rumour that early dev kits where like kit cars. Microsoft just supplied a spec sheet to which developers built the dev kit to.

Utter bullshit. This has been debunked by BKilian on these B3D forums. MS never provides a spec-sheet and tells the developers to go build a dev-kit.
 
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