NGGP: NextGen Garbage Pile (aka: No one reads the topics or stays on topic) *spawn*

[Deleted member 11852]

If Sony want 3D augmented reality, which I assume they do, they'll need to match that human perception.

I've not read anything to suggest Sony want 3D augmented reality!?!?!

See response 1. There's nothing stopping a sensor bar being 30 cms wide or more if they want.

Nothing at all, only Sony would need to produce two items instead of one. It's more expensive to produce a sensor bar compared to building sensors into the unit. Less desirable yes, but cheaper.

I think Sony will have looked at Wii, Kinect, Move, their balance sheet, and made a more realistic decision.

 

[XpiderMX]

I'm not convinced Sony will ship the PlayStation 4 with Eye or Move in the box, I think the controllers are simply being made fully compatible with this technology should the user purchase it some time down the road.

But I guess we'll find out in 5 days

Currently it’s not clear if this device will support body tracking in the future as Kinect but it’s almost sure that it will be bundled with every Orbis system.

http://www.vgleaks.com/orbis-dual-camera-whats-this/

 

[Averagejoe]

You may be right about Sony's hardware engineering capabilities, but this proves nothing on it's own. There isn't always going to be a direct relationship between the cost of manufacture of a console and it's retail price point.



I don't see this in the positive light you do. Sony's PS3 redesigns have each involved ripping out hardware and features present in the previous version. I don't recall any console where (aesthetics aside) the original version was so far and away the best version to own and each successive revision has resulted in a lesser device. Maybe someone else can think of a comparable example?

That is true problem is Sony also manufacture many of the parts of its consoles,so is not the same buying a complete console outsourced and buying partial parts because you make several other parts..

For example blu-ray MS on the 360 would have loss even more than Sony if they went that way,because sony had manufacturing plants for Blu-ray,MS did not and had to outsource.

Don't know but true is that sony manages to lower the cost,even when it means changing mechanics,like from slot loading to top loading and things like that which reduce price,in fact the PS2 did not even had a DVD drive even that it had a mechanical tray,but the xbox did,it was basically a PC drive.

Things like this save money,and sony is much better handling this,at the end of the day all games still play the same on the 3 models.:smile:

 

[Deleted member 11852]

http://www.vgleaks.com/orbis-dual-camera-whats-this/

Reporting specs is one thing. Reporting Sony business decisions is something else. And the word "sure" sounds none too certain to me.

 

[Averagejoe]

If the Wii taught me anything it's that good motion control is actually quite hard. I played countless Wii games with poor controls. I don't want developers to have to fight to make the game controllable.

I agree it would be preferable, it's also more expensive. You know what Sony's financial's look like? http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/index.html <- Read that.

Sony simply can't afford it. I refer you to the above. They don't have money to gamble on experiments. You're looking at it like a consumer and gamer. I'm looking at it like a business decision, which is what it is for them.

Any one who thinks sony doesn't have money to pull this out is day dreaming,is call investment plenty of companies have done this,MS can deliver an incredible powerful console with nothing but top tech including impressive camera they have money to burn,that doesn't mean they will because there is a point you can't cross.

I don't see that as a killer for sony,they just buy Genkai for more than 300 millions,a company who people think is close bankruptcy,did that move just for gaming.

If they think the money is there and the chances are there they will do it no matter what,is part of the business,MS loss 6 billions on bing,yet it hasn't kill it.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

That is true problem is Sony also manufacture many of the parts of its consoles,so is not the same buying a complete console outsourced and buying partial parts because you make several other parts..

What you're suggesting is Sony Computer Electronics can purchase components at cost - at the expense of another division of Sony (Electronics), who produce those components but make no profit on the sale. It's not impossible that Sony Electronics would have to reject profitable orders while fulfilling Sony Computer Electronics requirements. This is not sound business.

Don't know but true is that sony manages to lower the cost,even when it means changing mechanics,like from slot loading to top loading and things like that which reduce price,in fact the PS2 did not even had a DVD drive even that it had a mechanical tray,but the xbox did,it was basically a PC drive.

Sony revise their consoles to reduce manufacturing costs which in turns means they can lower the price and increase their profit (or reduce their losses). This does not mean Sony have magically developed the ability to include hardware at no cost. This entire line of reasoning is insane.

 

[XpiderMX]

Reporting specs is one thing. Reporting Sony business decisions is something else. And the word "sure" sounds none too certain to me.

Well, then you agree that reporting business decisions for both is inaccurate, you cannot trust things just for one of two. If you don't trust that Sony will bundle PSeye in each box, then you don't trust the same for Microsoft.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Well, then you agree that reporting business decisions for both is inaccurate, you cannot trust things just for one of two. If you don't trust that Sony will bundle PSeye in each box, then you don't trust the same for Microsoft.

Of course it is. Reporting on specifications for machines that are already in the hands of multiple developers and where, seemingly, there are many sources willing to corroborate leaked specifications, is entirely different speculating what Sony intend to include in the basic package.

But there have been multiple leaks which have stated that Kinect is fundamental to the operation of the next Xbox, that is it won't work without it. I've not read anything like this for the PS4. Have I missed something!?!

 

[Averagejoe]

What you're suggesting is Sony Computer Electronics can purchase components at cost - at the expense of another division of Sony (Electronics), who produce those components but make no profit on the sale. It's not impossible that Sony Electronics would have to reject profitable orders while fulfilling Sony Computer Electronics requirements. This is not sound business.

Sony revise their consoles to reduce manufacturing costs which in turns means they can lower the price and increase their profit (or reduce their losses). This does not mean Sony have magically developed the ability to include hardware at no cost. This entire line of reasoning is insane.

Are you suggesting that sony had buy component from it self.

Or are you suggesting that sony has to buy from some one else,because can't use what they manufacture in other plants.?

Dude Sony had plants that manufacture not only blu-ray for PC,but also stand alone blu-ray players,in fact the PS3 is sony's number blu-ray seller,far beating stand alone players and PC drives..

If anything other departments get their parts for Blu-ray from PS3 manufacturing plants.

 

[XpiderMX]

Of course it is. Reporting on specifications for machines that are already in the hands of multiple developers and where, seemingly, there are many sources willing to corroborate leaked specifications, is entirely different speculating what Sony intend to include in the basic package.

But there have been multiple leaks which have stated that Kinect is fundamental to the operation of the next Xbox, that is it won't work without it. I've not read anything like this for the PS4. Have I missed something!?!

I just explained what I think about the PS4 camera, and I used the vgleaks quote to support what I think.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Any one who thinks sony doesn't have money to pull this out is day dreaming

In terms of Sony's finances your head is in the sand. They're billions in debt and their share price is rated just slightly above "junk". They have undergone a huge amount of job cuts and Kaz Hirai's business consolidated and rationalisation plans requires jobs being cut this year and next.

You didn't read the link I posted at all, did you?

I don't think they're going under, but that eventuality is far from certain. They're basically coasting along on Sony Pictures profits which is the only division bringing in substantial money. Several divisions are still bleeding and others are just coasting. You can't coast financially if you're selling a console at a loss with the hope of profiting in 2-5 years.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Are you suggesting that sony had buy component from it self.

Or are you suggesting that sony has to buy from some one else,because can't use what they manufacture in other plants.?

Did you know Sony televisions and laptops use LCD panels, DVD drives and other components from other manufacturers? Why? Because the laptop division will source components at the best cost. This isn't always Sony, or it may be Sony can't produce them at that particular time. Do you think that because Sony manufacture stuff it's free!?! You surely don't. Every component manufactured by Sony then 'sold' at cost to another Sony division is lost revenue and profit. It's that simple. I doubt, given what position Sony is in, is that 'at cost' intra-divison sales are a rarity - if they happen at all. Each division needs to be profitable.

Dude Sony had plants that manufacture not only blu-ray for PC,but also stand alone blu-ray players,in fact the PS3 is sony's number blu-ray seller,far beating stand alone players and PC drives..

My EU launch (March 2007) PS3 60Gb has a Toshiba Blu-ray drive in. Understand?

 

[mrcorbo]

PS and PS2. Originals almost always had more features than the later models.

The point I was making is that cost reduction by component/feature removal isn't proof of superior engineering/manufacturing prowess.

One could also argue that Sony are more optimistic about use of features, wastefully adding more than the platform needs, and subsequent releases noting a lack of utilisation of a feature have made the economic cut-back without detriment to the platform. But at least Sony are willing to generously invest in hardware ideas and features up front instead of skimping out and relying on add-ons.

I hope you're just playing Devil's Advocate here and don't believe that Sony are making design decision based on their genorousity.

 

[mrcorbo]

In terms of Sony's finances your head is in the sand. They're billions in debt and their bond rating is rated just slightly above "junk". They have undergone a huge amount of job cuts and Kaz Hirai's business consolidated and rationalisation plans requires jobs being cut this year and next.

Fixed?

 

[Averagejoe]

Did you know Sony televisions and laptops use LCD panels, DVD drives and other components from other manufacturers? Why? Because the laptop division will source components at the best cost. This isn't always Sony, or it may be Sony can't produce them at that particular time. Do you think that because Sony manufacture stuff it's free!?! You surely don't. Every component manufactured by Sony then 'sold' at cost to another Sony division is lost revenue and profit. It's that simple. I doubt, given what position Sony is in, is that 'at cost' intra-divison sales are a rarity - if they happen at all. Each division needs to be profitable.


My EU launch (March 2007) PS3 60Gb has a Toshiba Blu-ray drive in. Understand?

Toshiba is a partner of sony on the Playstation brand...

In fact toshiba even used Cell on some of their TV's.

Trying to negate sony advantage on the hardware department is silly.

 

[Averagejoe]

In terms of Sony's finances your head is in the sand. They're billions in debt and their share price is rated just slightly above "junk". They have undergone a huge amount of job cuts and Kaz Hirai's business consolidated and rationalisation plans requires jobs being cut this year and next.

You didn't read the link I posted at all, did you?

I don't think they're going under, but that eventuality is far from certain. They're basically coasting along on Sony Pictures profits which is the only division bringing in substantial money. Several divisions are still bleeding and others are just coasting. You can't coast financially if you're selling a console at a loss with the hope of profiting in 2-5 years.

They are billions in dept yet they buy Gankai for close to 400 millions,just for gaming purposes.

This is investment sony may be in debt but they still sell 50 billions on hardware yearly,the investment is nothing is the reward is there,funny MS has money to burn and Durango will have a top of the line GPU like last gen,is this a signal of weak MS pockets,not is risk vs reward,the PS3 800+ to manufacture fiasco will not happen again.

 

[Jugix]

Toshiba is a partner of sony on the Playstation brand...

In fact toshiba even used Cell on some of their TV's.

Trying to negate sony advantage on the hardware department is silly.

Toshiba used variation of Cell in their TVs because Cell was co-developed by IBM, toshiba and Sony. Toshiba's Cell containst only 4SPE cores (without PPE) and hardware video decored/encoder.

I have no idea what you mean by Toshiba being a partner of Sony in 'playstation brand' per se.

 

[Averagejoe]

The point I was making is that cost reduction by component/feature removal isn't proof of superior engineering/manufacturing prowess.



I hope you're just playing Devil's Advocate here and don't believe that Sony are making design decision based on their genorousity.

The PS2 slim took out tray loading for top loading,and stopped support for the HDD,but the HDD was late and a dead cause,and top loading means cheaper PS2 for every one,by the way the slim ps2 inserted network adapter,something the original model didn't have build in and that was an extra $40 for separate.

Either way silly since the models can play all the games,linux was use by pretty much no one.

They just kill things that did not work,in fact if the new super slim PS3 dies,you don't have to open your whole console and dismantle the DVD drive just to get your disc out.

Some advantages as well.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I agree it would be preferable, it's also more expensive. You know what Sony's financial's look like? http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/index.html <- Read that.

Everyone here knows Sony's financials. However, if you don't invest, you don't get returns. If Sony's business thinking is like yours, why add a touch panel on the controller? Or a speaker? Why use 18 CU when they could use 16? You have to get the right set of features, and Sony's prior success with casual camera gaming is something they can capitalise on again, plus compete with their major rival.

Sony simply can't afford it. I refer you to the above. They don't have money to gamble on experiments. You're looking at it like a consumer and gamer. I'm looking at it like a business decision, which is what it is for them.

Business is more than looking at the bank balance and shying away from anything expensive.

I've not read anything to suggest Sony want 3D augmented reality!?!?!

They've augmented reality in PS2 (EyeToy), PSP (Invisimals), PS3 (EyePet) and Vita. It's pretty obvious they value AR. We've also learned they are supposed to be adding 3D cameras for depth perception. They also sell 3D TVs and want people to upgrade. It makes little sense to include stereoscopic cameras and yet not provide a means to record 3D footage or composite the living room with the game world in 3D.

Nothing at all, only Sony would need to produce two items instead of one. It's more expensive to produce a sensor bar compared to building sensors into the unit. Less desirable yes, but cheaper.

I think Sony will have looked at Wii, Kinect, Move, their balance sheet, and made a more realistic decision.

If they are adding stereoscopic cameras and a mic array (also see the Kinect thread about the difficulty of having microphones in the case suffering from fan noise issues), adding these on an external USB device will added very little extra cost on top of the BOM for the components, but will add considerable functionality/convenience/acceptability to the final product; if the PS console has to be placed under the TV, Sony will alienate a lot of potential customers.

 

[MrFox]

Sony spent around 5 billion in R&D alone in 2012 and a similar amount in each of the last 4 years, which is the time frame where Orbis was being designed and relevant techs being developed. I would have been worried about the PS4 if this number would have dropped significantly, but it didn't.

Also, I'm not sure how to interpret the stratospheric rise in Sony stock since December, but it's hard to interpret it as "omg, sony sucks teh doooomed". It's fair to say there's a cautious optimism right now instead. They are no longer in the grim territory from last November.