NGGP: NextGen Garbage Pile (aka: No one reads the topics or stays on topic) *spawn*

[expletive]

We don't know enough yet to know how MS is going to avoid these--either they learned their lessons with tiling or MS just built an entire system around too-small of memory with the intent to irritate developers and tank performance.

Yeah, seems to me like the majority of folks are happy to default to outrage that MS #@!%!-ed it all up. Do we think their engineering team have been replaced with a room full of chimpanzees since 2005? Yes i understand the cost pressures and broader target audience in play now but it just seems like a more productive and positive use of our time to piece together how Durango can perform well, instead of the easy road of why it can't.

 

[XpiderMX]

(surprisingly) Microsoft. Have any leaks confirmed that kinect 2 is actually a depth camera?

From a 2010 patent:

[0036] As shown in FIG. 2, capture device (20) may include a camera component (423). According to an example embodiment, camera component (423) may be or may include a depth camera that may capture a depth image of a scene. The depth image may include a two-dimensional (2-D) pixel area of the captured scene where each pixel in the 2-D pixel area may represent a depth value such as a distance in, for example, centimeters, millimeters, or the like of an object in the captured scene from the camera.

[0037] Camera component (423) may include an infra-red (IR) light component (425), a three-dimensional (3-D) camera (426), and an RGB (visual image) camera (428) that may be used to capture the depth image of a scene. For example, in time-of-flight analysis, the IR light component (425) of the capture device (20) may emit an infrared light onto the scene and may then use sensors (in some embodiments, including sensors not shown) to detect the backscattered light from the surface of one or more targets and objects in the scene using, for example, the 3-D camera (326) and/or the RGB camera (428). In some embodiments, pulsed infrared light may be used such that the time or a phase shift between an outgoing light pulse and a corresponding incoming light pulse may be measured and used to determine a physical distance from the capture device (20) to a particular location on the targets or objects in the scene. According to another embodiment, the capture device (20) may include two or more physically separated cameras that may view a scene from different angles to obtain visual stereo data that may be resolved to generate depth information. Other types of depth image sensors can also be used to create a depth image

 

[Butta]

I find it amusing when people compare the GPU's for these 2 systems without taking into account that Durango will be pulling from GPU resources to match Orbis on compute. If Orbis is running a game that is maxing the 4 CPU CU's with only 14 left for graphics then would Durango not be in a scenario where 4 of it's CU's are used for compute (assuming all things equal) which only leaves 8 for graphics. So I've been seeing alot of these 12 vs 14 CU talk, but this processor is not good enough on it's own (for both systems) to not be pulling on GPU resources.

 

[babybumb]

I wonder how much LIBGCM helps the PS3 performance vs Direct X Xbox 360 currently..

They are closer in multiplats then they should be imo. RSX is not good

 

[patsu]

I find it amusing when people compare the GPU's for these 2 systems without taking into account that Durango will be pulling from GPU resources to match Orbis on compute. If Orbis is running a game that is maxing the 4 CPU CU's with only 14 left for graphics then would Durango not be in a scenario where 4 of it's CU's are used for compute (assuming all things equal) which only leaves 8 for graphics. So I've been seeing alot of these 12 vs 14 CU talk, but this processor is not good enough on it's own (for both systems) to not be pulling on GPU resources.

Depends on whether the Durango CPU has better math talent !

I wonder how much LIBGCM helps the PS3 performance vs Direct X Xbox 360 currently..

They are closer in multiplats then they should be imo. RSX is not good

Based on informal developer conversations, yes, libGCM does make a difference.

 

[Butta]

Depends on whether the Durango CPU has better math talent !

It's the same Jaguar processor is it not? The article just posted on Digital Foundry sure makes it sound like there is nothing to assist in compute other than the GPU

 

[XpiderMX]

It's the same Jaguar processor is it not? The article just posted on Digital Foundry sure makes it sound like there is nothing to assist in compute other than the GPU

Just read vgleaks articles...

Durango:

x64 Architecture- 8 CPU cores running at 1.6 gigahertz (GHz)

Orbis:

Orbis contains eight Jaguar cores at 1.6 Ghz, arranged as two “clusters”

 

[pjbliverpool]

A standard Jaguar module contains 4 Jaguar cores so it's likely both consoles are just using 2 modules. I'd say it's pretty unlikely based on the rumours we've seen so far that there will be any significant differences between the two consoles in that regard.

 

[patsu]

It's the same Jaguar processor is it not? The article just posted on Digital Foundry sure makes it sound like there is nothing to assist in compute other than the GPU

Supposedly there are more customization on Durango's CPU. Some mentioned cache tweaks and/or better FLOPs. I have no details.

 

[Averagejoe]

I find it amusing when people compare the GPU's for these 2 systems without taking into account that Durango will be pulling from GPU resources to match Orbis on compute. If Orbis is running a game that is maxing the 4 CPU CU's with only 14 left for graphics then would Durango not be in a scenario where 4 of it's CU's are used for compute (assuming all things equal) which only leaves 8 for graphics. So I've been seeing alot of these 12 vs 14 CU talk, but this processor is not good enough on it's own (for both systems) to not be pulling on GPU resources.

I have paint this scenario like 10 times already and many ignore it or just plain don't want to see it.

If those 4 CU are use for compute physics,animations,and so on it will hurt Durango for sure.

The problem i see here is that some people refuse to admit that everything Durango do has a resource cost,anything Durango do to emulate anything done on those 4 CU will be at the cost of resources.

Physics,animation,lighting,AA nothing is free on Durango and the performance hit will be there.

Like i already say if those 4CU are heavily use for Physics,animation and so one,comparison to durango will not be 12 CU s 14 CU,it would be more like 9 CU vs 14 CU we are talking about 5 more CU on a console that already has faster bandwidth and double the ROP's,something got to give.

Now let me clear this Durango can be more powerful than Orbis but not with this specs under this scenario.

 

[patsu]

We need/want to see the actual games. It's hard to visualize the differences with incomplete specs.

 

[Averagejoe]

Just read vgleaks articles...

Durango:



Orbis:

256-bit SIMD operations, 128-bit SIMD ALU

It doesn't say this for Durango a disadvantage or a simple omission.?

I think Orbis Jaguars are 64Bit as well,in fact aren't all jaguar 64bits.?

 

[Butta]

I have paint this scenario like 10 times already and many ignore it or just plain don't want to see it.

If those 4 CU are use for compute physics,animations,and so on it will hurt Durango for sure.

The problem i see here is that some people refuse to admit that everything Durango do has a resource cost,anything Durango do to emulate anything done on those 4 CU will be at the cost of resources.

Physics,animation,lighting,AA nothing is free on Durango and the performance hit will be there.

Like i already say if those 4CU are heavily use for Physics,animation and so one,comparison to durango will not be 12 CU s 14 CU,it would be more like 9 CU vs 14 CU we are talking about 5 more CU on a console that already has faster bandwidth and double the ROP's,something got to give.

Now let me clear this Durango can be more powerful than Orbis but not with this specs under this scenario.

You're right, the doubling of ROPs is certainly going to make things even worse on Durango and that's not even taking into consideration that at 3GB reserved for the OS, it is certainly going to be pulling on some CPU resources as well. Never mind the fact that Kinect will likely always be available. I just can't see any scenario where CPU/GPU resources aren't being impacted dramatically in a box that is trying to do so much concurently.

 

[Butta]

Anyways... doesn't Microsoft's odd version of any product always suck

Windows 95 = not great
Windows 98 = better
Windows Millenium = suck!
Windows 2000/XP = better
Windows Vista = sucks!
Windows 7 = better
Windows 8 = suck!

XBOX = sucks!
360 = better
Durango = sucks!

This is just a joke BTW for those who take it too seriously.

 

[XpiderMX]

<p>

256-bit SIMD operations, 128-bit SIMD ALU</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>It doesn't say this for Durango a disadvantage or a simple omission.?</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>I think Orbis Jaguars are 64Bit as well,in fact aren't all jaguar 64bits.?

</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Both are 64bits, even both can be jaguar, what I mean is the orbis leak said jaguar, durango only x64, it can mean anything but it is weird only one with jaguar name.</p>

 

[liolio]

Anyways... doesn't Microsoft's odd version of any product always suck

Windows 95 = not great
Windows 98 = better
Windows Millenium = suck!
Windows 2000/XP = better
Windows Vista = sucks!
Windows 7 = better
Windows 8 = suck!

XBOX = sucks!
360 = better
Durango = sucks!

This is just a joke BTW for those who take it too seriously.

well if we are there I think I'm going to open a thread in the business section, just read an article on Forbes and I've to say that Msft is presented with immense challenges, I'm not sure they have what it takes to make it through /the battle.is close to lost already.. please don'tanswertl that post I'm to delete it once I opned the dedicated topic in the proper section.

 

[Cyan]

We need/want to see the actual games. It's hard to visualize the differences with incomplete specs.

Yes, we aren't totally sure about the specs.

I am very excited about this new generation. Judging from the Digital Foundry article PS4 will be the more powerful of the two. I'd love to see how they compare.

PS4 is the Xbox 1 of this generation. Sony went to the supermarket and chose the elements of the machine to make it balanced, powerful and capable, although it seems a bit generic for a console.

Durango is the less powerful of the two but it has a very console-rish design that I fancy quite a lot. I like to find original architectural within console's hardware.

None of them is extra powerful. If It were for that, I'd like to have a console featuring 32GB of RAM so lazy developers wouldn't have to worry about optimizing the code.

 

[Cyan]

<p></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Both are 64bits, even both can be jaguar, what I mean is the orbis leak said jaguar, durango only x64, it can mean anything but it is weird only one with jaguar name.</p>

I am not sure both Jaguar CPUs are 64 bits...

One is listed as Jaguar x64 --Durango.

The other one is listed as Jaguar x86 --Orbis.

So maybe Orbis is 32 bits + 54 CUs or 64 bits + 22 CUs? :smile2:

Big difference there, Orbis CPU could be either 32 or 64 bits.

 

[Cyan]

I wonder how much LIBGCM helps the PS3 performance vs Direct X Xbox 360 currently..

They are closer in multiplats then they should be imo. RSX is not good

I dunno about X360 or PS3, but I can tell you that the future Orbis and Durango should perform spectacularly well when compared to PCs.

Once you remove the very heavy limitations imposed by a generic HAL, adding to this the overhead of a full-fledged operating system.. it is quite relevant imho.

I am happy with Orbis and Durango. Putting in a GPU that is even in the €100+ range simply is not an option in a console...for obvious reasons.

@Butta, I can tell you that Windows 8 Pro truly rocks.

 

[patsu]

It could be because earlier PS4 specs started with Steamroller. It was revised to Jaguar later. Is there a 32-bit Jaguar ? Why would Sony downgrade it from 64-bit to 32-bit ?

I don't necessarily think Orbis will be supermarket style or easier to build. Earlier on, people disbelieved that Orbis would have 4GB high bandwidth memory.

They simply have different goals. MS wanted Durango to have 8 GB RAM it seems.