NGGP: NextGen Garbage Pile (aka: No one reads the topics or stays on topic) *spawn*

[inefficient]

Just FYI. Enterprise editions of Windows Server 2003 supported upto 64GB of ram on 32bit x86 CPUs with PAE extentions. 32bit windows itself was not the wall.
I recall reading MS considered increasing the adressable limit in XP too. But it broke a lot of drivers so they decided no to.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Just FYI. Enterprise editions of Windows Server 2003 supported upto 64GB of ram on 32bit x86 CPUs with PAE extentions. 32bit windows itself was not the wall.
I recall reading MS considered increasing the adressable limit in XP too. But it broke a lot of drivers so they decided no to.

Hence why I said 32 bit Windows. Granted I could have said consumer versions, but I didn't think anyone was seriously considering spending the money for Windows server in order to run games. BTW - those same games would be compiled as 32 bit binaries which means that even though Windows Server with PAE would be able to address more than 4 GB, 32 bit applications would still be limited to a 2 GB virtual address space.

You could get around that somewhat by setting an application flag to allow it to see more than 2 GB VA but that can cause significant problems both with the application as well as with the OS.

Regards,
SB

 

[Strange]

I'm confused by this bandwidth/frame notion. That does not even make sense. And at any rate, Durango has more bandwidth/rop or flop than Orbis, and even if it didn't I don't see why more memory requires more bandwidth.

There are lots of scenarios I can image that are expensive from a memory footprint perspective and not a memory bandwidth perspective. NUI in particular, in addition to the obvious game world content and system databases. But I'd rather hear from some dev's to see what they think. More is generally better, and while it may go to waste in some multiplatform titles. I sure people can come up with all sorts of ways to use it. Perhaps pre-computing data or render targets and storing them for later use saving clock cycles down the line.

You've got it mixed up.
Orbis (4GB GDDR5) has around 2.5 times more RAM bandwidth than Durango (8GB DDR3) excluding the ESRAM (which is supposedly only 32MB and can't do everything)

In any case, most here agree that Durango is very unlikely to be hindered by the size of memory, but will be hindered by bandwidth when compared to Orbis. Buffing 8GB up to 16GB will, quite frankly, do jack.

 

[Inuhanyou]

However if devs actually account for Durango's bandwidth deficit during game planning, then technically there is no issue at hand to begin with.

They are both technically balanced machines, its only when compared to each other that issues prop up, hence simply coding to the lowest common denominator.

I'm sure Platinum remembers the big mistake they made this gen when using 360's EDRAM to full effect in Bayonetta without thinking about how they would fit the game onto PS3 with no compromises.

Because of that, they've sworn by leading with PS3 to have no issues with cross development, and i assume that will be the case for most devs next gen.

 

[Strange]

However if devs actually account for Durango's bandwidth deficit during game planning, then technically there is no issue at hand to begin with.

They are both technically balanced machines, its only when compared to each other that issues prop up, hence simply coding to the lowest common denominator.

I'm sure Platinum remembers the big mistake they made this gen when using 360's EDRAM to full effect in Bayonetta without thinking about how they would fit the game onto PS3 with no compromises.

Because of that, they've sworn by leading with PS3 to have no issues with cross development, and i assume that will be the case for most devs next gen.

They may not have issues if you look at the end product alone.
They will appear to have issues to the consumer when the competitor's machine can run the same IQ or better IQ with better/more stable frame rates.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Isn't £300 more than $400 dollars.?

Typo. I meant replace the $300 XB360 with a $300 Durango and drop the 360 to the entry level tier.

 

[Inuhanyou]

They may not have issues if you look at the end product alone.
They will appear to have issues to the consumer when the competitor's machine can run the same IQ or better IQ with better/more stable frame rates.

But the end result is what matters. Having parity is what matters. The PS4, i'm sure will be more capable, but having a stable experience for every sku will be key.

It will be rare for any third party dev to code very low level next gen unless they are designing for an exclusive, that's my prediction.

 

[shinobi]

But the end result is what matters. Having parity is what matters. The PS4, i'm sure will be more capable, but having a stable experience for every sku will be key.

It will be rare for any third party dev to code very low level next gen unless they are designing for an exclusive, that's my prediction.

games leading on pc will see a nice advantage on ps4.

 

[Strange]

But the end result is what matters. Having parity is what matters. The PS4, i'm sure will be more capable, but having a stable experience for every sku will be key.

It will be rare for any third party dev to code very low level next gen unless they are designing for an exclusive, that's my prediction.

Third party devs don't have to code low level for Orbis to overtake Durango according to current rumored parts.
It'll just power through everything with room to spare, quite frankly.
For sure devs will come up with things to do with that, through methods like increasing AA, increasing resolution, etc. that doesn't require a lot of dev time but increases IQ by just throwing more at the machine.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Larger levels potentially. Higher resolution (hence larger) textures.

If your rendering resolution isn't as high, those higher res textures won't be any value. And in cross-platform titles, levels will be designed to the lower limit in terms of size, save a couple of commissioned DLCs maybe.

The actual advantage of the extra RAM will be an interesting comparison next-gen, vs extra processing of Orbis.

 

[Inuhanyou]

By "not coding low level", i'm not talking about simply avoiding their specific eccentricities, i'm talking about simply going with the barest bones stuff so as to have no issues whatsoever.

Coding to Durango's main memory bandwidth, its 1.2 tflop GPU, and Orbis's ram amount if it happens to be lower than Durango's when the final retail consoles ship out.

I'm not making a case for Durango performing better than Orbis in any case just to get that notion out of the way if that's what your thinking. I'm only coming up with projected scenarios where there isn't a huge difference in between the two sku's that will cause obvious issues for devs to work around.


For example, if one sku is at full 1080p with 4xMSAA and the other is at 1280x1080 with FXAA, but they are otherwise the same looking, that's what i mean by acceptable parity that i'm looking for. Just that in terms of assets, and generally being the same game, that there is no major compromising across the two console versions.

I don't even know if having a 50% more powerful GPU would warrant that worry honestly...

 

[Silent_Buddha]

They may not have issues if you look at the end product alone.
They will appear to have issues to the consumer when the competitor's machine can run the same IQ or better IQ with better/more stable frame rates.

Really? And how did that work out during the X360/PS3 generation? Where one console often had a superior frame rate, resolution, or IQ advantage in the first few years.

For the average consumer to notice it'd have to be a night and day difference, not something you have to sit and compare side by side to notice.

And thus far, even assuming no special function hardware, the current rumored specs won't lead to night and day differences.

Regards,
SB

 

[Silent_Buddha]

If your rendering resolution isn't as high, those higher res textures won't be any value. And in cross-platform titles, levels will be designed to the lower limit in terms of size, save a couple of commissioned DLCs maybe.

The actual advantage of the extra RAM will be an interesting comparison next-gen, vs extra processing of Orbis.

Larger RAM pool was in reference to both Orbis and Durango. Not one over the other. I had assumed he was asking what could be done with the larger RAM pool both consoles are going to have for this next generation compared to the last.

You don't have to convince me that multiplatform games are going to end up using a similar amount of RAM for in game assets, I've been saying that ever since the rumored specs were released for the two consoles.

There might be opportunities on Durango to use extra RAM to preload level assets, but beyond that I'm not sure what other competitive advantages it would offer in multiplatform titles.

Regards,
SB

 

[GuestLV]

I cant take this anymore
http://i.minus.com/i1ot2q1bfpm6z.gif

 

[french toast]

That leKed document from vg leaks was a bit too detailed for me to believe it was some kind of informer...or developer....a dev wouldnt have access to all the inner workings like that 9 months oit from release would they?...I expect that final dev kits would be issued shortly after they announced the console...there for controlling when the full details come out....Microsoft is just too experienced and bigger enough of a company to hash this up...especially when they have had 8 sodding years and countless millions of $ invested I to it...

Im going to throw this out there and say micosoft them selfs are satisfying the inquisitive fanboys by striking up behind the scenes exclusive deals with the likes of vg leaks and kutako..just releasing enough juicy details to make everyone think they know it all and then wham...a new feature kept secret...tha soumds lile quite a plausible plan too me..that is what I would do if I was them.

After all dont the microsofts/apples/qualcomms of this world usually get their lawyers on the case if info comes out early enough thst might damage the company..? Qualcomm pulled that leaked roadmap recently...it happens but bizzarly microsoft and sony let these so called "leaks " to go along there merry way...mmm I smell a fish..

 

[LightHeaven]

Does it really matter? Its like Xbox 1.5 all over again. I assume Microsoft just decided that their scaling chip would be fine for resolution's sake instead of prioritizing 1080p gaming.

Personally, i care more about AA than resolution.

But again, i doubt that ESRAM is going to be enough for 1080p native anyway for the games these consoles are going to be rendering.

That vgleaks document strongly hints at more smaller tiles compared to 360. It alsos implies that the reason ROPs are not tied to the eram this time around is because if the tiles are small enough to fit the cache, they will have enough bandwidth to achieve it's theoretical fill rate...

If the gpu can indeed have many small tiles (and no where near the penalty rate from tiling xenos had) 32mb shouldn't be a problem... Nor its seemingly low bandwidth compared to edram from 360...

 

[Hecatoncheires]

These are the kind of specs i would expect for a console released early 2012 ... for a machine out in late 2013 / early 2014 , it's quite shocking .

Depends on your business strategy.

It outperforms the Wii U easily, it's close enough to Orbis to get proper third party support, and they have enough financial space to pack a whole lot of multimedia, peripheral and social stuff. It's perfect for a jack of all trades system. Most people won't recognize the graphical difference to Orbis anyway, and even more people will buy it because 8GB > 4GB. The system will be able to play Kinect dancing games that change the music according to your moves, older players will be able to control any game without a controller (finger gun) and nevertheless there will be Halo, Forza and Alan Wake ready to rock. Everyone in the family can have fun with it.

I definitely prefer Orbis over Durano, you probably too, but that doesn't mean that Durango will fail.

 

[McHuj]

After all dont the microsofts/apples/qualcomms of this world usually get their lawyers on the case if info comes out early enough thst might damage the company..? Qualcomm pulled that leaked roadmap recently...it happens but bizzarly microsoft and sony let these so called "leaks " to go along there merry way...mmm I smell a fish..

I think this why vgleaks is making their own diagrams instead of posting the original docs. Lawyers can come after them if they post the original docs, but there isn't anything that can be done about information and pics they up together.

 

[Averagejoe]

The specs we've seen of the next Xbox definitely align with what MS would have released at the beginning of 2012. For consumers let's hope they refined them for a 2014 launch, if not then at least let's hope they set the price reasonable at $200-$250.

If not then it seems the PS4 has the upper hand on tech specs.

I don't get it what make any one think that MS will priced Durango $50 to $100 less than the current xbox 360.?

People there are cost involve in manufacturing a console beyond,GPU,CPU and Ram..

Controllers,cases,power supply,mother boards,Blu-ray drive,cables,bluetooth,wifi.

Then cost for putting all the hardware together,price of package and shipping.

I see this new trend now on all the forums i visit including this one,since Durango won't be ultra powerful it most be dirt cheap which will not be the case.

In fact as of right now the core 360 with Kinect is $299,the premium 360 without Kinect the same $300 and the xbox doesn't even include free online play.

 

[Pugger]

These are the kind of specs i would expect for a console released early 2012 ... for a machine out in late 2013 / early 2014 , it's quite shocking .

And the PS4?