Too much story in modern games? *spawn

David Jaffe has been on this topic for awhile now. Calling All Cars! was a deliberate attempt to make a completely mechanics focused game, and it was a lot of fun. Twisted Metal on PS3 has a tiny little bit of story, but the game is all game.

Coincidentally, neither game did all that great in the market, as far as I know. ;-/

LBP, PixelJunk Monsters, Settlers of Catan, even the downloadable Sudoko game on PSN get a lot of my time because they are pure games, but they seem to be harder to sell to the huge mass market.
 
Are they though? LBP has done very well, but in terms of simple fun, it's play mechanics are a turn-off for many. The emphasis was right, but the execution wasn't, IMO. Calling All Cars was too chaotic as well. If you look at Nintendo's catalogue, a lot focuses on gameplay. In fact how many Uncharted-style story driven game has Nintendo produced? I associate them completely with gameplay-focussed titles, which makes sense seeing as they are evolved from a toy manufacturer.

Looking at it another way, would COD:MW2 have sold any less if there wasn't a solo campaign? Iguess that question is unanswerable, but if it could be proven, the developers could have saved themselves a lot of time and effort and in future may want to simplify their game ideas.
 
I think what's important is to understand there are many ways to be entertained which we all put under the heading of "game," simply because there are many different people who have different tastes in entertainment. To stick entirely to recent games, Angry Birds, Just Dance, and Wii Fit did just fine without a story at all, or at least not a story anyone notices. Forza and Madden do just fine with more of a "coherent setting" than a "story." Borderlands, Bioshock, and Dead Space did just fine with only a skeleton of an in-game narrative. Call of Duty (I seem to recall reading that around a third of buyers never play online, and those sales alone would still make it a very successful game) and Uncharted did just fine as a "playable action movies." Story-heavy RPGs like Mass Effect have done very well. Story-light RPGs like Diablo 3 have done very well. Heavy Rain actually did quite well as a "choose your own adventure movie."

The important thing isn't whether you've got a story in your game or not. The important thing is whether you're entertaining your audience.
 
Games should be about gaming and gameplay not about seing the GPU doing stuff.

Gaming is about actions, making decisions, getting better over time/practice, discovery new things that you can do with extra skills, learning levels and its secrets, making strategies, inventing solutions and dieing many times.

That is true if you are playing Mario, CS, Deus Ex, Portal, StarCraft... Not so much about many recent AAA games.

Dont take me wrong I like a nice story, but it should blend well like Portal or Metroid Prime.
 
Gaming is about actions, making decisions, getting better over time/practice, discovery new things that you can do with extra skills, learning levels and its secrets, making strategies, inventing solutions and dieing many times.

I quite like that explanation.
 
I wouldn't go as far as that. Gaming has now expanded to various interactive entertainments. If someone wants to make an interactive movie, and others will enjoy playing it, that's perfectly acceptable. I just think game developers are at a bit of a crisis in understanding their art and lacking focus. They shouldn't be ashamed of just creating simple games, or frightened of trying to create more expansive interactive stories. They just need to better understand their product, not delude themselves into thinking it can be all things to all people, and invest their work where it'll have the best effect.

A specific change I'd make to pc999's definition is 'dying lots of times'. I would love a game where the rules were well explained and logical, such that the player could complete it with absolute risk and yet never dying. One of the big annoyances in gameplay is games where the rules are inconsistent, espeically when mimicking real-life with well understood natural laws. Invisible walls taht stop your well-considered escape being one such example.
 
I agree with you to an extent, Shifty. I think the big developers definitely feel they need to deliver a big story with every game they make. I'm not sure why Naughty Dog, Epic or other biggies don't put out games just because they're fun to play. Hell, Rockstar made a reasonably successful table tennis game just because they thought it was cool and fun. I feel like if someone at Epic came up with an idea for a fun little game, they'd never be allowed to make it, or be allowed the time to seriously work on it.
 
Having a nice setting to anchor action and to give an atmosphere is one thing, having a story impacting gameplay (that is any cinematic since they remove control from you and you become passive, ie no more gameplay at that time) is less desirable.

Note that in Portal, the story is told while you are playing, not instead of you playing.

Games don't need a story or a world, but it might improve them.

But then don't forget people like different things, I can't stand modern games that are more like broken movies in which I have to push a button to continue to watch, and I can't stand Diablo 3 because to me it's just an e-penis/random thingy addiction either.

I'd also like to note that popular Indy games are mostly gameplay based. (Usually with a strong gfx style to make them stand out and easier to sell.)


--note--
I fixed a number of quote tags guys, please be more careful ;p

Yes, but in portal 2 you spend alot of time having a story told to you through cutscenes whilst you're not playing, and that game is almost universally considered a better game.

I agree that not all games need a story (point & click adventures certainly do - and they're considered no less games), but story almost always adds to the game rather than taking away from the experience. The only exception being when a story is offensively bad, or if it is so badly told (through whatever device employed) that it drags down the entire experience.

I wouldn't argue that modern games are putting in too much story. As for me, most modern games are putting a larger emphasis on catering to more different types of people through a clear seggregation of the experience. That is, with added modes like MP competitive and co-op, modern games are providing sandboxes for people who just like "its all about the mechanics"-type games, as well as a more story focussed single player experience for those who apreciate story and narrative in their games.

I would agree with the person who said that games have always contained alot of story, it's really just the devices employed to tell them that have grown, changed and evolved over time.

If the arguement is for more games with a more subtle story exposition in them, games like Team ICO games, Thatgamecompany games etc, then I would argue that there are already alot of those kinds of games already. I would also say that those kinds of games are actually alot more risky and difficult to get right becuase they require a much more complete understanding of game design (level, mechanics etc), art design, sound & setting design etc etc that very few people in this industry actually possess. And with the complexities of managing and delivering in modern game development, I imagine that it's probably much easier and less risky for publishers to fund games with very overt and far less subtle game narratives, especially when ballooning budgets necessitate high sales and thus require the game to have a wide enough appeal.
 
Well, an example: in Killzone 2 and 3, they could have told much more story imo!!! The universe is super rich with great background and an immersive history...but I had to read it at killzone.com, as it was not handled in the game!?!? Which is just plain wrong imo! On the other hand KZ2 has great gameplay with lots of replay value due to the advanced AI and the signature settings...just playing it makes super fun because of how the world reacts depending on your action!

Not every game needs a deep story and focus on story...but if done right (and the only example I can think of at the moment is Alan Wake and Heavy Rain) ... it is a fundamental experience imo!
 
Yes, but in portal 2 you spend alot of time having a story told to you through cutscenes whilst you're not playing, and that game is almost universally considered a better game.

Portal 2 doesn't really have a lot of cutscenes from what I remember. Saying you spend "a lot of time" in cutscenes sounds wrong to me.

There's the ending of the game, a bit at the start IIRC, and maybe 1 or 2 when GlaDos awakens and Wheatley does his stuff. I'd put it at a couple of minutes at best.
 
I wouldn't argue that modern games are putting in too much story. As for me, most modern games are putting a larger emphasis on catering to more different types of people through a clear seggregation of the experience. That is, with added modes like MP competitive and co-op, modern games are providing sandboxes for people who just like "its all about the mechanics"-type games, as well as a more story focussed single player experience for those who apreciate story and narrative in their games.
I think that's where the devs are going wrong though. I'll use Starhawk as a test case. For anyone who doesn't know, it's the spiritual successor to Warhawk, an online, mulitplayer only game. Starhawk is also an online multplayer game, but it added a story-driven solo campaign, which the PR campaign even made a small song and dance about. now this solo campaign is very welcome to gain experience of how to play the game before going online. That's a Good Thing. However, it dresses the training experience in such a way that it limits what is possible because of the story. As a player, you're led to different enouncters in different areas, and don't get a proper training experience. Now if the developers hadn't ever considered a story mode, and had instead focussed entirely on an online multiplayer game with extensive bot training, allowing for user created scenarios and stuff, then the solo experience would have been much better and more rewarding, and far better value for money for anyone who didn't want to go online.

My question is why LightBox Interactive made the choice they did? I'm thinking it's because games these days are always being dressed up in fancy stories, and game developers haven't got a clear focuss. Trying to reach a larger audience by adding more is inherently bad design, like trying to make a sandwich that pleases everyone. Throwing in every conceivable ingredient because someone somewhere likes it makes for a terrible sandwich. the flip-side would be Quantic Dreams adding a multiplayer online mode to their development of Heavy Rain to expand its appeal. The game just doesn't lend itself to that so they had the sense to not bother. This isn't the case regards stories, and games that don't really need a story are being given one anyway.

Another game I was very disappointed in was Valkyria Chronicles, who's beautifully told story was very appealing, because the gameplay was turn-based tactics but they broke that and made unwinnable games because the story suddenly came along mid-level and messed things up. No-one would think to interrupt a grandmaster chess game with some nonsense about the white's side suddenly being affected by plague and all the pawns dying and being removed from the board, so why do it with computer games? What made XCOM awesome was success was down to the player and their choices, and we didn't have to worry about random rule-changes like a radio message halfway saying the base was under attack and you had to withdraw now, losing half your team.
 
I think you forget Warhawk was based on a well loved single player game.
 
Many don't bother to just emulate the direction, action shots, etc pioneered by renowned directors in their games. If they just did that many games would be greatly enhanced by removing the afterthought narratives.
 
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The prevalence of story telling in modern games has more todo with writers being hired as designers than anything else.
Some of the worst designers I've ever worked with were writers first and "game designers" second. Too many times I've seen people trying to jam game mechanics around a story or worse a focal point in a story.

I do think games provide an interesting vehicle to tell a story, but I'm also from an era where the gameplay mattered and the story was an add on.

Having said that I still love to play JRPG's where the meta mechanic is and always has been grind grind grind, rewarded with story piece.
Hell my favorite game of all time Xenogears is great because of the way the story unfolds, and the main characters roll in it.
 
Games should be about gaming and gameplay not about seeing the GPU doing stuff.

Gaming is about actions, making decisions, getting better over time/practice, discovery new things that you can do with extra skills, learning levels and its secrets, making strategies, inventing solutions and dieing many times.

That is true if you are playing Mario, CS, Deus Ex, Portal, StarCraft... Not so much about many recent AAA games.

Dont take me wrong I like a nice story, but it should blend well like Portal or Metroid Prime.
I think that is great way of viewing games. I don't mind action set-piece or script driven experiences, but I don't mind games that give you some leg room to screw around and play with their given tool sets. Ratchet and Clank games have been a good compromise of both these concepts.

I do wish more AAA games actually welcomed that kind of gameplay mentality. Not every game needs to be an action movie with multi-player on the side, and can do well with just fun/interesting game-centric ideas. It's a constantly self-perpetuating idea that needs to die like every retail game being $60. I mean can a well-marketed fun $30-$40 title sell well or even better than a $60 game?!

Starhawk is also an online multplayer game, but it added a story-driven solo campaign, which the PR campaign even made a small song and dance about. Now this solo campaign is very welcome to gain experience of how to play the game before going online. That's a Good Thing. However, it dresses the training experience in such a way that it limits what is possible because of the story. As a player, you're led to different encounters in different areas, and don't get a proper training experience. Now if the developers hadn't ever considered a story mode, and had instead focused entirely on an online multiplayer game with extensive bot training, allowing for user created scenarios and stuff, then the solo experience would have been much better and more rewarding, and far better value for money for anyone who didn't want to go online.

My question is why LightBox Interactive made the choice they did? I'm thinking it's because games these days are always being dressed up in fancy stories, and game developers haven't got a clear focus. Trying to reach a larger audience by adding more is inherently bad design, like trying to make a sandwich that pleases everyone. Throwing in every conceivable ingredient because someone somewhere likes it makes for a terrible sandwich.

Another game I was very disappointed in was Valkyria Chronicles, who's beautifully told story was very appealing, because the gameplay was turn-based tactics but they broke that and made unwinnable games because the story suddenly came along mid-level and messed things up. No-one would think to interrupt a grandmaster chess game with some nonsense about the white's side suddenly being affected by plague and all the pawns dying and being removed from the board, so why do it with computer games?
Starhawk: Why would taking away the single player story and substituting it for an offline bot-training mode be better value? I haven't played the game mind you, but I heard it was just an offline training mode. There wasn't any real story centric cinematic cutscenes, just some motion comics stuff thrown in. It was just an offline mode with some context thrown in for good measure, a playlist of levels thrown in with some A.I.

Now I could see adding a offline mode where you literally mess around with the game's parameters (which is somewhat possible in the story mode with the build and battle mechanic) and enemy A.I., but that doesn't detract anything from what the story mode was (a loose narrative keeping the game's mechanics in tact). Now that would be cool in addition to the story mode, not because of it.

Valkyria Chronicles: That is the game's flaw in itself. Not something exclusive to just that game, but that doesn't apply to every game that separates it's gameplay experiences from one another. Something like what Uncharted (at least 2, can't speak on 3) does with it's single player, it doesn't try to sacrifice one for the other. And the co-op is a good middle ground for creating an experience that keeps some of the context of the story while preserving some of the gamey elements of multiplayer (wish it had a split-screen option though).
 
I think you forget Warhawk was based on a well loved single player game.
Ummm...so what? ;) It's a different game sold for its multiplayer. Warhawk would have sold to its intended audience by another name, I'm sure, although the PR was helped by the existing franchise. Interestingly, Warhawk was originally going to have a solo campaign when first announced. That was dropped and the title released for a lower price as a download. As the solo campaign was immaterial to the online game experience, its loss makes good sense to me. The solo Warhawk game could have been a separate product if they wanted to go ahead with it.

Starhawk: Why would taking away the single player story and substituting it for an offline bot-training mode be better value?
For exactly the reason you allude to here...

Now I could see adding a offline mode where you literally mess around with the game's parameters (which is somewhat possible in the story mode with the build and battle mechanic) and enemy A.I., but that doesn't detract anything from what the story mode was (a loose narrative keeping the game's mechanics in tact). Now that would be cool in addition to the story mode, not because of it.
The story mode consumed development resources and imposed limitations on the training mode. It's not that the story mode was bad, but it wasn't good and was immaterial to the game proper. I doubt anyone's buying Starhawk because of its fabulous single player experience! So if the investment isn't generating a better game or better sales, why bother creating it? The game, the online multiplayer experience, would be better served with a more open training ground. LBI should have invested in a more open level editor instead of comic cutscenes, recording dialogue, and scripting in-game events. If they didn't consider story at all, I hope they'd have seen this.

Valkyria Chronicles: That is the game's flaw in itself.
It's a flaw generated by the focus on story above the focus on gameplay. The game developers were willing to let the gameplay suffer in support of their story. That's an example of where there's 'too much story (emphasis)', and where the game would be better if the gameplay was never compromised for the story and the story was dressed around the gameplay in a way more respectful of the game.* Other games get a happier balance, like Uncharted, because the developers aren't just throwing story into the mixing bowl expecting what comes out the other end to be better than if they just brushed a little story o the top after the game was done.

* Some people will of course love what Valkyria Chronicles did because they were wanting an interactive story experience, and they'd lament the removal of story-events mid-mission.
 
Since the earliest days of gaming, story didn't come into it because the tech couldn't handle it. But that was a Good Thing, because gaming is about playing games, and not watching/partaking in movies. I have no complaints with movie-type games, but I do lament the disappearing sense of gaming for the fun of playing games. I don't recall any board-game that was story led, or any game played as kids that followed a divergent story arc.

Well I remember playing Phantasy Star on my Master System and certainly felt that story was the main focus there and would argue it to have been the case with NES Final Fantasy games as well.

For me gaming is about partaking in stories and being in different worlds/settings, the actual gameplay is just a tool for it. Simple gameplay only focused titles rarely do anything for me, although I do enjoy for example Trials or NHL games. MGS 4 was about as good as it can get :). If you would add MGS 4's focus on story telling and combine it with a space/scifi setting, then that'd be great. Mass Effect games never had great gameplay imo, but it never mattered.

I guess my opinion is almost a polar opposite of yours.
 
Well I remember playing Phantasy Star on my Master System and certainly felt that story was the main focus there and would argue it to have been the case with NES Final Fantasy games as well.

I guess my opinion is almost a polar opposite of yours.
(Computer) Gaming has grown up to become a broad entertainment. But the tenets of games, as existed before their computerisation, is pretty much gameplay without story. I repeat, I have no objection to story-based games as a genre, or the subtle, postive addition of story into games. The objection is where the addition of story is unnecessary or to the detriment of the gameplay. This happens when devs add story for the sake of addign it because everyone else does (IMHO).

ERP's revelation explains a great deal, if writers are being brought on and used as game designers. They are two different schools.
 
Except for D&D and every other role playing game.
Yes, that's one example, in thousands of years of human play (chess, draughts, tiddlywinks, skipping, football, basketball, cards, gomoku, snakes-and-ladders,...) proving that in general, games have been story-led.. ;)
 
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