The Next-gen Situation discussion *spawn

[iceberg187]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/16tttt/orbis_unmasked_what_to_expect_from_the_nextgen/c7zfgtg

Here is another rumour by a dev supposedly. Doesn't say much, it aligns with eurogamer article. It seems Sony and MS are cheaping out and selling for profit possibly.

A custom 7850 might be used for the consoles, but they could fit a better gpu if they wanted to. So far it doesn't seem Agins Philosophy will be baseline next gen.

I believe that Reddit article, like most else thus far, has been debunked. .

That said, I have a question. I built a new PC last year. AMD 7970 HD 3GB, 16GB of ram and 3.4 Ghz 17-2600k. With the most to AMD for both consoles and from what I've been able to see, CPUs being the weaker of the components for both consoles. My PC will suffice for this upcoming gen, or at the very least, for a decent length of time. Is this correct or is my thinking off base.

 

[ultragpu]

Agni should be more than doable now that I think of it. Cut framerate down to 30fps, ditch 4xMSAA, optimize the assets, code to console architecture and you should be just fine running it at 1080p with FXAA. Not to mention the 1.8gb Vram should be cut down even further after optimization and should fit nicely into that hefty amount of GDDR5 ram in Orbis. You can mark my word now Square is gonna showcase the new Agni demo of this E3 on PS4.

 

[ultragpu]

I believe that Reddit article, like most else thus far, has been debunked. .

That said, I have a question. I built a new PC last year. AMD 7970 HD 3GB, 16GB of ram and 3.4 Ghz 17-2600k. With the most to AMD for both consoles and from what I've been able to see, CPUs being the weaker of the components for both consoles. My PC will suffice for this upcoming gen, or at the very least, for a decent length of time. Is this correct or is my thinking off base.

Spec wise I think you're the last person on earth to be worried about the ports especially when you have a 3Gb 7970. But it is the console exclusives that you're missing out though and they're usually quite a bit better looking or graphically intensive than the multiplatforms.

 

[Inquisitive_Idiot]

I think all the people conjecturing ways that Durango will make up the difference with Orbis are somewhat missing the point.

As per the leaked roadmap, MS were aiming for 6-8x the performance of the 360, the specs we have are precisely that. They didn't know what kind of power Sony was going for, and from this gen with the Wii, they know that performance doesn't equate to sales.

I agree...

So this time, they're going for a console with Kinect, media, social, apps, connectivity, all tightly integrated with the Windows ecosystem as it's focus.

The only problem is nothing you have listed here, or what we have heard about the console indicates that it represents a paradigm shift much like the Wii and iPhone were (That is why they sold well; not because the hardware was cheaper, but because the ideas and concepts they introduced revolutionized their respective market segments).

Every modern consumer electronics devices from TVs to Smartphones can use Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, NetFlix and every other manner of App. available, along with providing App. multitasking and some level of gaming. These aren't features you should be advertising or really building your VIDEOGAME CONSOLE around. Those are secondary concerns, and most of them already exists with the Xbox 360 today.

I said it in another thread, but it sounds to me like Microsoft has a case of Apple / Nintendo fever. What made them successful was a strong understanding of the fundamental aspects of a video game console. They produced powerful hardware, backed by great developer support and wrapped it in an excellent online package. From there, they built on additional features to meet the markets growing demand for Apps, and the rising popularity of services like NetFlix. That seemed like a very easy formula to follow, "build it, and they will come"! This console to me sounds like a series of compromises based around the notion that they can drastically increase their mass appeal by including Kinect, and... I don't really know what else, because they don't have anything that can do that! In an age when so many device are competing for the consumers attention, this sounds like a me too device that simply tries to appeal to everybody and ends up appealing to nobody.

 

[XpiderMX]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/16tttt/orbis_unmasked_what_to_expect_from_the_nextgen/c7zfgtg

Here is another rumour by a dev supposedly. Doesn't say much, it aligns with eurogamer article. It seems Sony and MS are cheaping out and selling for profit possibly.

A custom 7850 might be used for the consoles, but they could fit a better gpu if they wanted to. So far it doesn't seem Agins Philosophy will be baseline next gen.

Well, fortunately both don't look like Wii U level...

 

[Albofighter]

To be honest, What most disappointed me is UE4 dropping their voxel lighting setup. This to me says that the consoles are not strong enough and I'm worried that it will drive up developers cost which is bad for everyone including Sony and Microsoft.

I think it's imperative that developers have an easy time using high quality assets, having real time dynamic lighting, and x86 architecture will help as well. The engines should help with physics and AI ideally.

The consoles need to be powerful enough to make this possible for developers, otherwise production will go up. Games will be less innovative. They won;t take as much of a chance on new IPs cause it would be too risky and expensive. More studios would go out of business. Less games on the market and less incentive to upgrade to mediocre consoles when tablets, laptops, etc. are already making huge jumps in technology every year.

In order to avoid losing market share, potential profit and business, it is essential that these companies release powerful consoles that says these games are not possible on tablets and phones for the next 6-10 years and even PCs would have a hard time to match the efficinceis of HMC, 3D stacking, dedicated hardware that assist the GPU etc. It would make consoles unique, worthy of an upgrade and more importantly, development friendly.

 

[wco81]

I'm not sure graphics alone will sell next gen consoles and games.

The Wii U and Vita problems could hit consoles. The mass market won't upgrade to 4k TVs until they are about the price of current TVs, so prettier pictures aren't driving purchases.

Meanwhile mobile device are hogging a lot of the spending that people would allocate to electronics entertainment. Sure there are people who can buy a top smartphone, pay the cell bill and also buy a next gen console at launch and $60 games (which potentially you can't resell).

But there are far more people who will have to choose one or the other, not both. When phones and tablets are selling tens of millions of units per month, it seems clear where most people's priorities lie.

 

[Bagel seed]

I think it's imperative that developers have an easy time using high quality assets, having real time dynamic lighting, and x86 architecture will help as well. The engines should help with physics and AI ideally.

The risk of the 1.5 next gen leap is that developers resort back to the corridor gameplay stuff we're inundated with now to increase bullshot quality to sell games. I agree that the easier it is for devs (both big and small) to make great enough looking games the more likely it'll be that they can focus more on new gameplay ideas instead of resorting to on rails experiences.

I think with the current rumored specs we should be ok.. just barely though. I trust the top dev teams will always bring it nonetheless. On a whole I think open world games with truly more interesting environments and NPCs will finally become a reality.

 

[Albofighter]

I'm not sure graphics alone will sell next gen consoles and games.

The Wii U and Vita problems could hit consoles. The mass market won't upgrade to 4k TVs until they are about the price of current TVs, so prettier pictures aren't driving purchases.

Meanwhile mobile device are hogging a lot of the spending that people would allocate to electronics entertainment. Sure there are people who can buy a top smartphone, pay the cell bill and also buy a next gen console at launch and $60 games (which potentially you can't resell).

But there are far more people who will have to choose one or the other, not both. When phones and tablets are selling tens of millions of units per month, it seems clear where most people's priorities lie.

It's not the same. You can get $1000 phones on contract which become very affordable and attractive, whereas consoles are expenisve from the beginning and for years on after. If Microsoft and Sony were smart, they could get a 3 year contract for xbox live and PS plus and sell their consoles for $199. I could see a lot of people buying that plus the contract would drive sales of games and help increase market share.

 

[trainplane]

I believe that Reddit article, like most else thus far, has been debunked. .

That said, I have a question. I built a new PC last year. AMD 7970 HD 3GB, 16GB of ram and 3.4 Ghz 17-2600k. With the most to AMD for both consoles and from what I've been able to see, CPUs being the weaker of the components for both consoles. My PC will suffice for this upcoming gen, or at the very least, for a decent length of time. Is this correct or is my thinking off base.

That's a pretty killer rig and remember if one part is not satisfactory, you can always upgrade individually. The exciting thing about the rumored specs is they can compare almost directly with x86 PC parts that devs are familiar with (excluding the edram and special dsp chips). Outside of Xbox 1, this is unprecedented. And with the next Xbox's Direct X probably being very close to the PC Direct X, PC games should be quite easy to develop this time around. Very little excuse for bad ports. That is probably the most exciting part for PC gamers. In mid-2014, just a few months after these consoles release, a Broadwell/Maxwell or Broadwell/Volcanic Islands combo should really produce impressive visuals.

 

[Albofighter]

I wonder when the new DX11.5/12 will come out and if xbox3/ps4 can have a firmware update to support it....I hear maxwell will be impressive. It might be worth the wait.

 

[trainplane]

I wonder when the new DX11.5/12 will come out and if xbox3/ps4 can have a firmware update to support it....I hear maxwell will be impressive. It might be worth the wait.

Not if future DX requires hardware implementation. Anyway, 2013 are iterative years for the Geforece and Radeon lines. 2014 are new archs running on 20nm parts, hopefully producing Xbox 3/PS4 quality visuals in 1440p.

 

[bkilian]

I said it in another thread, but it sounds to me like Microsoft has a case of Apple / Nintendo fever. What made them successful was a strong understanding of the fundamental aspects of a video game console. They produced powerful hardware, backed by great developer support and wrapped it in an excellent online package. From there, they built on additional features to meet the markets growing demand for Apps, and the rising popularity of services like NetFlix. That seemed like a very easy formula to follow, "build it, and they will come"! This console to me sounds like a series of compromises based around the notion that they can drastically increase their mass appeal by including Kinect, and... I don't really know what else, because they don't have anything that can do that! In an age when so many device are competing for the consumers attention, this sounds like a me too device that simply tries to appeal to everybody and ends up appealing to nobody.

And you've hit one of the reasons I left. Almost all of the core gamers that created the Xbox that were in management have been forced out or left, and what's left over is MBAs with dollar signs in their eyes. I just found I could no longer believe in and agree with the direction the execs were taking the Xbox org.

 

[Rangers]

And you've hit one of the reasons I left. Almost all of the core gamers that created the Xbox that were in management have been forced out or left, and what's left over is MBAs with dollar signs in their eyes. I just found I could no longer believe in and agree with the direction the execs were taking the Xbox org.

wow...

well, it's very possible they're going to get slapped with a nice wake up call if indeed a underpowered durango is reality.

it boggles my mind ms could screww up basically the one non windows monopoly thing they've ever had success in, and against two japanese companies that cant beat anybody, at that. i mean it's not like they're going against samsung or apple here. either of those two would absolutely destroy them.

 

[ultragpu]

And you've hit one of the reasons I left. Almost all of the core gamers that created the Xbox that were in management have been forced out or left, and what's left over is MBAs with dollar signs in their eyes. I just found I could no longer believe in and agree with the direction the execs were taking the Xbox org.

Really makes one to wonder just what kind of beast MS could create if they haven't shifted their focus on gaming to else where.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Yeah if they just hand down the performance crown to Sony, I consider that incredibly weak executing. Xbox 1 was a beast and 360 very formidable against the PS3 with the earlier launch factored in, now they are supposed to launch simultaneously and considering the financial positions of these two companies...

Let's see what happens, but I'll take more GPU power over Kinect any day of the week and all day long.

 

[Gerry]

And you've hit one of the reasons I left. Almost all of the core gamers that created the Xbox that were in management have been forced out or left, and what's left over is MBAs with dollar signs in their eyes. I just found I could no longer believe in and agree with the direction the execs were taking the Xbox org.

Gosh. Well that doesn't sounds too encouraging.

 

[french toast]

Have you actually tried looking? I went on Newegg, a go-to place for hardcore PC gamers in the US, and found them available. After reading this post, I went to eBuyer in the UK and the same 6 GB cards are available. pjbliverpool has provided other links. 6gb, vastly more powerful machines, available now a year before PS4. PC will only be even more powerful when PS4 when comes.

The explanation is you are selecting an underpowered PC to represent the hardcore PC gamer. Your comparison in the past with consoles has related them to high-end PCs of the time. PS2 and XB360 could hold their own, offering superb tech for the time. Now you are dropping the bar for high-end PCs well below what they are capable of. Big i7s and big single-core GPUs will trounce Durango and Orbis specs. Obliterate them, leave alone the multi-GPU setups. And cost a hell of a lot more too. It's ludicrous to think that someone spending £2000 on a PC won't get more powerful, more capable hardware than a console showing in games. And as we know the library is 90% the same, we know the PC gets almost everything the console does at higher resolutions and framerates. This is simple logic. Consoles will compete on library (although PC has lots of Indie titles too), experience (Kinect and whatever Sony controller), and general presentation and services, but not on tech.

No I dont agree..yes the high end bar of pcs have hit a wayyy higher bar than the difference between ps360 and pcs of thier time..but you forget pc games are essentially console games..except its not coded to the potential of the pc components...the pc components power is largely wasted...inefficient.

Im not saying I expect ps4 xbox 720 to blitz pc...not at all..im just saying that pcs wont blitz consoles either for the first couple of years so lomg as they are designed right.....and software is my reason.

Even now top pc games with crossfire and i7 set ups play the same games as ps360....it just looks a lot more crisper and some better effects.. (resolution also)..they are not a world away from each other, perhaps look twice as good as console.......not the 20-30x difference of the hardware.

Lets rememebr the consoles are nearly 8 years old.....

 

[Squilliam]

And you've hit one of the reasons I left. Almost all of the core gamers that created the Xbox that were in management have been forced out or left, and what's left over is MBAs with dollar signs in their eyes. I just found I could no longer believe in and agree with the direction the execs were taking the Xbox org.

Well I guess that decides it for me. I've been a big Xbox fan ever since halo 1 and I absolutely fell in lover with the controller as the first console controller I felt comfortable with coming from a 100% pc gamer background. It looks like if I get a console this coming generation it'll be a playstation.

 

[Rangers]

Well I guess that decides it for me. I've been a big Xbox fan ever since halo 1 and I absolutely fell in lover with the controller as the first console controller I felt comfortable with coming from a 100% pc gamer background. It looks like if I get a console this coming generation it'll be a playstation.

Umm, you might want to wait to you know, see how the games look first.

That said, I'll be likely forced to go to playstation if it shows a major visual edge too. The problem is, I hate the Dual Shock so much I dont enjoy playing PS3 games nearly as much as 360 ones. It would make things a lot easier if the rumors of a new PS controller are true, and it's too my liking. if not i guess i'll go more pc, and probably own all three.

But I'm still not sold on the Xbox gloom just yet, even given sometimes I make posts like the last one I made in this thread.

People also seem to be giving little cred to MS non-gaming plans for that 3GB RAM. I for one am interested and imagine it could be pretty compelling. Compelling enough it could even sell a lot of consoles. It's not like MS is pulling a Wii U here either, it looks like a powerful box, just maybe less than the competitor, maybe.

People on forums are awfully quick to condemn MS for whatever...Ads, Kinect, even crying about "they focus too much on apps". I mean wtf...each of those is basically a non-issue, or a plus imo in the case of apps, really. Never have I been like, damn, I hate my Xbox because of all these ads.

Again though all that said I'm #1 rah rah power guy, and will be super condemnational of MS if they come up significantly weaker in real world practice. I just dont think things are set in stone yet. e3 should be incredibly interesting, as to if we can see a difference in the games. i still have a bad feeling what we see from sony at e3 may not be "real" though, since most rumors point to ps4 being in a less finished state anyway.