News & Rumors: Xbox One (codename Durango)

[ERP]

If it was just an MS survey, I'll put it in perspective, at one point during 360 development, someone at MS sent out a survey to 3rd parties asking if they wanted more EDRAM in 360, obviously everyone answered yes.
They then later had to send out an apology saying it couldn't be done because the survey was sent out before the person in question had talked to the hardware team.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

If it was just an MS survey, I'll put it in perspective, at one point during 360 development, someone at MS sent out a survey to 3rd parties asking if they wanted more EDRAM in 360, obviously everyone answered yes.
They then later had to send out an apology saying it couldn't be done because the survey was sent out before the person in question had talked to the hardware team.

This tracks with my experience dealing with Microsoft on a couple of occasions regarding Government projects. Sometimes the folks I was dealing with in Microsoft (some really great people) firmly believed that some decisions were within their control, but it later transpired that they weren't and decisions had already been made.

It's not always abundantly clear when you are being asked a question, if this is to assist in a decision yet to be made, or merely feedback on a decision already made.

The above is certainly an odd question to ask though. As a developer, if you're not being asked to give something up, who would say no? A or B I can understand, but do you want more? Odd.

 

[kots]

for such a long generation, both dropped the ball imo.

Yes , but only one side seems to be constantly investigating every little rumor while the other are content and happy with what they have , i think it's quite telling

 

[bagofsuck]

2 devs/insiders debunked the upclock/RAM upping rumor over at GAF.

Neogaf.. And how a *nah* and *lol* debunk anything?? How do we know if these guys are insiders/developers??

 

[warb]

Yes , but only one side seems to be constantly investigating every little rumor while the other are content and happy with what they have , i think it's quite telling

Having some number higher than the other guy is enough to mollify the console warrior.

 

[COPS N RAPPERS]

You cannot validate again chips that are likely to be already soldered.

You can overclock the GPU, but to what price?
Do you need to OV the chip, at least a bit, to sustain i.e. 800->875/900 change in a stable way across most/all samples?

hmmmm, Microsoft's dilemma cost efficiency VS heat efficiency. Edit - (based on upgrading specs)

Cost efficiency - using existing hardware and upping speeds, down side over heating risks.

Heat efficiency - Using a newer chip at stock regulations, down side it costs more.

complications and time spent adjusting, cost efficiency VS heat efficiency

Cost efficiency - spending time upping clock speeds figuring out how to keep it all running cool - down side waists time.

Heat efficiency - reissuing newer chips at stock regulations on new motherboards - down side waists time.

..........either way time is wasted adjusting to something at the cost of doing something. so nothing goes without some sort of penalty.

 

[(((interference)))]

Neogaf.. And how a *nah* and *lol* debunk anything?? How do we know if these guys are insiders/developers??

At least one of those insiders were also backing the ESRAM yield/downclock rumour...

.......

And I should explain, this is not really my rumour, it's eastmen's - now he's a senior member here and his story checks out with me - but I'm repeating it because I've heard some corroboration from other sources (though not on his story that MS is going to devs with a list of changes for feedback on, just that MS seems to be looking at clock increases and that a 12 GB RAM upgrade is possible).

He posted this comment at the end of June which Rangers brought to my attention (his stuff about receiving four PMs is a cover story, he has a proper source):
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1761253&postcount=4267

So, last Tuesday I was asking Richard about his ESRAM article and mentioned eastmen's upclock comment; he initially dismissed it, but then he came back to me saying he might have been 'too hasty' in ruling out an upclock as an 'off hand comment' from a 'rock solid source' of his 'got (him) thinking', so he's chasing it but hasn't heard any more yet.

Now Richard is very skeptical - especially on these kind of forum rumours, so I was quite surprised that he changed his mind after initally ruling it out.
He hasn't heard anything about a RAM upgrade or MS going to devs with a list of upgrades for their consideration though - all these seem unlikely to him.

However, I have one other person with a dev source telling me both the upclock and the 12 GB RAM upgrade are being looked at and are possible.

So make what you will of that - I suppose everyone could be lying to me...

 

[Rangers]

MS would be so stupid not to do it. At $499 you had better be a cadillac console in every way possible. Like, 12 GB of RAM.

I also think if the point of the DDR design initially was to have more RAM than GDDR allowed, a competitive advantage, which was then stolen back by PS4, it's only smart to leverage that advantage back, where the competition cant possibly match it. Again, that was the initial point of your design, it seems foolhardy to throw that away.

If they did do that, it's funny to think back how at the beginning of next gen discussion here a couple years ago, there was prevailing sentiment that we were going to get only 2GB in next gen (due to vagaries and expenses of GDDR5). That anything more was "wishful thinking". I remember being the optimist arguing for 4GB in next gen.

We'd have been properly hornswoggled if 12GB did turn out, and we heard about it back then.

Well I guess, Crytek said RAM is inevitably the biggest limiter on visuals every console gen, that consoles invariably never have enough, and this gen of consoles went RAM heavy compared to GPU, so maybe that will prove good.

 

[Dave Baumann]

You cannot validate again chips that are likely to be already soldered.

Not that I know the context of the comment, but why would you need "validate" chips that are already soldered? Every single chip that passes through probably has its characteristics stored in a database and many, many ASIC parameters can be stored directly in fuses on a chip. It is possible to change the operating parameters of already manufactured chips (i.e. placed on a final product board) based on the characterisation of other chips and understanding the operating parameters for the collection of data across all the chips coming through (statistics, damned lies and statistics).

 

[Cyan]

At least one of those insiders were also backing the ESRAM yield/downclock rumour...

.......

And I should explain, this is not really my rumour, it's eastmen's - now he's a senior member here and his story checks out with me - but I'm repeating it because I've heard some corroboration from other sources (though not on his story that MS is going to devs with a list of changes for feedback on, just that MS seems to be looking at clock increases and that a 12 GB RAM upgrade is possible).

He posted this comment at the end of June which Rangers brought to my attention (his stuff about receiving four PMs is a cover story, he has a proper source):
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1761253&postcount=4267

So, last Tuesday I was asking Richard about his ESRAM article and mentioned eastmen's upclock comment; he initially dismissed it, but then he came back to me saying he might have been 'too hasty' in ruling out an upclock as an 'off hand comment' from a 'rock solid source' of his 'got (him) thinking', so he's chasing it but hasn't heard any more yet.

Now Richard is very skeptical - especially on these kind of forum rumours, so I was quite surprised that he changed his mind after initally ruling it out.
He hasn't heard anything about a RAM upgrade or MS going to devs with a list of upgrades for their consideration though - all these seem unlikely to him.

However, I have one other person with a dev source telling me both the upclock and the 12 GB RAM upgrade are being looked at and are possible.

So make what you will of that - I suppose everyone could be lying to me...

Richard is a technical guy so it's no surprise he is sceptical.

Most of us were sceptical too -I remained silent because I am not Gipsel, 3dilettante, etc etc- regarding the memory increase for the PS4 and it happened. Only one of hundreds of magazines (Edge) got it right... Some people were sceptical 'cos nobody was worse than Sony this past generation for overstating their numbers.

I am not sure about the increase of RAM, but...

If there are changes at all, what I find most likely to happen is that Microsoft could upclock the Xbox One because they never ever mentioned the GPU in their conferences, as it it wasn't finalised yet. I mean, they didn't even gave numbers that could favour them, nor they mentioned the eSRAM and things like that.

For a machine which is meant to last 8 to 10 years any upgrade, even last-minute ones, that makes sense and can be done without harming the hardware is welcome.

 

[Pozer]

MS would be so stupid not to do it. At $499 you had better be a cadillac console in every way possible. Like, 12 GB of RAM.

I also think if the point of the DDR design initially was to have more RAM than GDDR allowed, a competitive advantage, which was then stolen back by PS4, it's only smart to leverage that advantage back, where the competition cant possibly match it. Again, that was the initial point of your design, it seems foolhardy to throw that away.

If they did do that, it's funny to think back how at the beginning of next gen discussion here a couple years ago, there was prevailing sentiment that we were going to get only 2GB in next gen (due to vagaries and expenses of GDDR5). That anything more was "wishful thinking". I remember being the optimist arguing for 4GB in next gen.

We'd have been properly hornswoggled if 12GB did turn out, and we heard about it back then.

Well I guess, Crytek said RAM is inevitably the biggest limiter on visuals every console gen, that consoles invariably never have enough, and this gen of consoles went RAM heavy compared to GPU, so maybe that will prove good.

I agree. The entire system was designed around having lots of low cost ram and leveraging that ability to offset a suspected more processing centric design. The main problem with MS is they are not getting in front of anything in this race. The $100 cost difference will hurt them in the beginning, less available ram 5GB vs 7GB will really hurt in a few years, especially if the rumor about respawn complaining about 5GB is true and we haven't even hit launch. 2GB is a huge difference and will impact greatly the design scope of forthcoming multiplatform titles which hurts ps4 gamers greatly.

Im not one of those that thinks 16GB of DDR3 is overkill of slower ram. For multipatform it may help with parity. 8 game memory, 4 OS, 4 high speed ram disk or asset cache... The devs wouldve found some unique ways to utilize it,

 

[Pozer]

I also dont see how this would be possible to pull off at this point. The logistics of mfg a console through a third party chinese mfg and coordinating hundreds of parts, legal contracts, QA. Its not like movie where someone runs out on the factory floor and yell stop! Double the memory! This would have to be decided atleast in feb-march I would guess, the suppliers need several months notice to ship that typeof volume of anything,
That said if it was changed it would have been before E3 and why did they specify 8GB. i think one the reasons Sony may have touted their ram increase in feb was because they knew it was a bit late for MS to do much at that point. i could be wrong and I hope im wrong but i just dont believe the memory rumor. Gpu clock is possible. But what a nightmare of specs and price for MS.

 

[DrJay24]

At least one of those insiders were also backing the ESRAM yield/downclock rumour...

And it this point we still don't know about either, having yield issues would not surprise anyone with a 400mm^2 APU.

You guys loves to discredit "insiders" from GAF, yet they at least have track records and get their information vetting via the mods or lose their accounts. What do you guys risk pretending to have sources? There seem to be no penalty here for starting rumors. It seems the same crowd that want an upgrade the most also tend to get mysterious insider info to confirm them.

 

[Cyan]

And it this point we still don't know about either, having yield issues would not surprise anyone with a 400mm^2 APU.

You guys loves to discredit "insiders" from GAF, yet they at least have track records and get their information vetting via the mods or lose their accounts. What do you guys risk pretending to have sources? There seem to be no penalty here for starting rumors. It seems the same crowd that want an upgrade the most also tend to get mysterious insider info to confirm them.

It all began I think, after people read what Albert Penello wrote on Neogaf -which if wasn't true he'd be risking his GAF account- (I am not familiar with Neogaf anyways). suggesting that the specs weren't final and that the product cycle was still subject to changes.

I think both eastmen and (((interference))) have a track record of accepting the specs for what they were/seemed to be and (((interference))) was one of those rare people sticking to the originally leaked specs no matter what, because of his sources.

 

[eastmen]

I also dont see how this would be possible to pull off at this point. The logistics of mfg a console through a third party chinese mfg and coordinating hundreds of parts, legal contracts, QA. Its not like movie where someone runs out on the factory floor and yell stop! Double the memory! This would have to be decided atleast in feb-march I would guess, the suppliers need several months notice to ship that typeof volume of anything,
That said if it was changed it would have been before E3 and why did they specify 8GB. i think one the reasons Sony may have touted their ram increase in feb was because they knew it was a bit late for MS to do much at that point. i could be wrong and I hope im wrong but i just dont believe the memory rumor. Gpu clock is possible. But what a nightmare of specs and price for MS.

Sony mentioned after e3 that they weren't in mass production for the apu yet. I would assume MS isn't either. So why would other parts be in mass production ? Ram would be just increasing orders. I don't think it would affect much esp if it was initated quickly after e3.

One thing to remember is this.

The xbox one has 8 gigs of ram. But what does that mean. We know 3 gigs were previously reserved for the os and apps. If there is 12 gigs of ram now and 4 gigs is reserved then they can simply advertise as 8 gigs avalible for games and just run with it. They wouldn't really have to issue any retractions on the ram amount.

 

[Rangers]

Sony mentioned after e3 that they weren't in mass production for the apu yet. I would assume MS isn't either. So why would other parts be in mass production ? Ram would be just increasing orders. I don't think it would affect much esp if it was initated quickly after e3.

One thing to remember is this.

The xbox one has 8 gigs of ram. But what does that mean. We know 3 gigs were previously reserved for the os and apps. If there is 12 gigs of ram now and 4 gigs is reserved then they can simply advertise as 8 gigs avalible for games and just run with it. They wouldn't really have to issue any retractions on the ram amount.

They dont have offer any retraction at all. There's never going to be shame in delivering good news anyway. Complete non-issue. "We said we had 8, we actually delivered 12!" is an announcement they'd love to give.

In PS3 era Sony announced GPU clock at 550, when it was later downgraded to 500 they simply never mentioned the GPU clock speed again after that point and removed all references to it on official specs. And that was in dealing with a downgrade after an announcement, an upgrade is much less tricky.

 

[dagamer]

The problem rumors is they take time to spread (negative faster than positive) and that by the time we actually here something confirmable, the decision could have been made weeks/months ago.

At the very least, retail production and final assembly should start definitely by late-August/early-September so unless they want a fiasco on their hands, they need to get the show on the road.

 

[(((interference)))]

And it this point we still don't know about either, having yield issues would not surprise anyone with a 400mm^2 APU.

You guys loves to discredit "insiders" from GAF, yet they at least have track records and get their information vetting via the mods or lose their accounts. What do you guys risk pretending to have sources? There seem to be no penalty here for starting rumors. It seems the same crowd that want an upgrade the most also tend to get mysterious insider info to confirm them.

Well, I do have a track record (go ask Shifty if you like).

And, as said from the beginning, I am not confirming this rumour, just passing on what I've been given.

So I've told you what I know and where I got it from, make of it what you will.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

Examiner debunks its own upclock rumor:

http://www.examiner.com/article/xbo...gher-clock-speed-but-doubtful-on-increase-ram

It was all a confusion due to the magical ESRAM bandwitdh increment. They say now its so magical that it seems like the whole system was upclocked

 

[Michellstar]

That´s the way they worded it

"The bump was supposed to have been planned prior to initial reveal. Any actual changes would have taken place during E3 Week. Effectively, the way the RAM is set out in the machine, Microsoft realized they could be more efficient in its use without sacrificing the amount set aside for OS operation. They immediately reacted. Physical RAM won't be upped in time for November release as it was too late even during initial reveal, but developers are saying, in terms of efficiency of the RAM and the reported yield problems, Microsoft have made some snappy breakthroughs and gave the impression it was a straight up increase in clock speed; hence the rumor.""




Dos it make any sense?