*spin-off* Future of Engine Development (Licensed vs Internal)

[Brad Grenz]

EA is not shy about using Frostbite for everything they can. Guess they grew tired of paying for Unreal licenses. IIRC Square Enix is apparently working on an internally developed engine and Capcom has MT Framework. Zenimax also has Id Tech 5. Seems were are in the middle of a trend of big publishers cultivating technical expertise internally and leveraging that across as many projects as possible. That may prove to be a greater threat to Unreal Tech over the long run than a competitor like CryEngine.

ModEdit:

Spun off from Medal of Honour thread

 

[RenegadeRocks]

The next dead space is also rumoured to be using Frostbite 2 and the last nfs did that too. EA seems to make it its default engine for all studios.
Good for customers, UE3 feels very dated now.

 

[Rangers]

The next dead space is also rumoured to be using Frostbite 2 and the last nfs did that too. EA seems to make it its default engine for all studios.
Good for customers, UE3 feels very dated now.

Ehh, imo BF3 on console doesnt really look greatly better than say, Gears 3. I mean, you could quibble but I dont think it's a clear gap.

BF3 console also has it's share of ugly graphical bugs that seems every bit the equal of UE3 as well.

EA is not shy about using Frostbite for everything they can. Guess they grew tired of paying for Unreal licenses. IIRC Square Enix is apparently working on an internally developed engine and Capcom has MT Framework. Zenimax also has Id Tech 5. Seems were are in the middle of a trend of big publishers cultivating technical expertise internally and leveraging that across as many projects as possible. That may prove to be a greater threat to Unreal Tech over the long run than a competitor like CryEngine.

Konami has a really stunning looking imo engine too. The Fox engine? Seems a bit late for this gen though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjFWLEBFlOc

You got me curious so I went looking at Wiki about UE3. Looks like the most successful (third party) franchises that use it are Bioshock, Borderlands, Batman, and Mass Effect. Mortal Kombat too, though it's just one game this gen. Throw in that I think UE3 is used heavily in Microsoft's generic Kinect lineup and they're probably doing OK. All off topic I suppose.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Konami has a really stunning looking imo engine too. The Fox engine? Seems a bit late for this gen though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjFWLEBFlOc

You got me curious so I went looking at Wiki about UE3. Looks like the most successful (third party) franchises that use it are Bioshock, Borderlands, Batman, and Mass Effect. Mortal Kombat too, though it's just one game this gen. Throw in that I think UE3 is used heavily in Microsoft's generic Kinect lineup and they're probably doing OK. All off topic I suppose.

To be fair Kojipro hasn't shipped a game using the Fox Engine yet. Tech demos almost always look great.

I actually think the latest build of UE3 looks great, and doesn't appear dated at all aside from its worst implementations.

Just look at Gears 3 and Bioshock Infinite. They're superb looking games, and up there with the best this gen.

I think UE/CryEngine will benefit small to mid-size independent developers more looking forward, as it gives them a relatively low cost of entry into developing AAA quality games with the most modern technology. They have fleshed out and developed toolchains also which greatly assist smaller devs that would flounder in the mud trying to create their own technology to remain competitive in the marketplace. There's lots of PSN/XBLA games that use UE3, and i only expect that to continue as time goes on.

 

[Ruskie]

Yap, seems everything is going that way. I wonder if Ubi will use Anvil 2.0 for their major franchises, it would be great as it seems like impressive piece of tech. I'm just worried about visual diversity of games since every engine has unique look. Imagine next gen where for every EA game people say something like "Not liking it. Has that FB2 look to it".

 

[Scott_Arm]

EA needs to ditch their incredibly outdated graphics engines for their sports titles. They already merged that Madden animation system into Frostbite for Battlefield 3. I imagine Frostbite could do a better job than whatever engine they're using now.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Ehh, imo BF3 on console doesnt really look greatly better than say, Gears 3. I mean, you could quibble but I dont think it's a clear gap.

Could there be a clear gap when one is using almost all static objects and baking almost everything, while the other engine isn't by nearly as much?

 

[Fafalada]

I was usually a proponent of internal tech, but monolithic engine approach for multiple studios only works if you're willing to invest into it like you were a 3rd party middleware-provider.
And even that's no guarantee of success.

The other part is that monolithic approach by definition doesn't scale well across multiple genres.

 

[Prophecy2k]

I was usually a proponent of internal tech, but monolithic engine approach for multiple studios only works if you're willing to invest into it like you were a 3rd party middleware-provider.
And even that's no guarantee of success.

The other part is that monolithic approach by definition doesn't scale well across multiple genres.

Agreed, but for big pubs like EA that are risk averse and only seem to care about developing games in a handful of different genres (mostly shooters), then perhaps their approach holds merit.

I do wonder if other publishers like Microsoft, Nintendo or THQ plan to move towards this path.

I supose it could be a boon when a publisher decides to create a new studio from scratch. Being able to hit the ground running with an in-house engine and fully developed tool chain should grant you some benefits right?

What i don't understand is when pubs like EA force their developers that already had great tech to begin with, to use a pan-studio technology rather than the tech said developer has developed in house. If the studio was previously using a 3rd party middleware, it makes sense, but not so much otherwise.

I hope EA doesn't try to force Frostbite 2.0 down Bioware's mass effect team's throat (at least not until next-gen rolls around). The way things are going it could end up going that way.

 

[kagemaru]

I think studios will use it where it makes sense. I can't see a publisher like EA forcing all of their studios to adopt to a specific engine.

The next dead space is also rumoured to be using Frostbite 2 and the last nfs did that too. EA seems to make it its default engine for all studios.
Good for customers, UE3 feels very dated now.

Not sure it makes sense to use FB2 for Dead Space when they already invested in their own engine for that game. I'm sure FB2 would work with the game's design, but I'm not sure it would be worth the switch.

EA needs to ditch their incredibly outdated graphics engines for their sports titles. They already merged that Madden animation system into Frostbite for Battlefield 3. I imagine Frostbite could do a better job than whatever engine they're using now.

My concern with a switch like this is whether or not the performance in madden would suffer. Even if the game looked better, I doubt many madden fans would be happy with a 30fps frame rate.

Could there be a clear gap when one is using almost all static objects and baking almost everything, while the other engine isn't by nearly as much?

How does it make sense to determine the gap based on one or two narrow aspect of each game?

By this logic there is the same gap between BF3 and UC3 since UC3 also has many things baked in.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

I hope EA doesn't try to force Frostbite 2.0 down Bioware's mass effect team's throat (at least not until next-gen rolls around). The way things are going it could end up going that way.

Funnily enough, my opinion is the exact opposite. UE3 served well for the trilogy but new games could benefit from a lot of FB2 tech.

Just remember the Mako and look at those landscapes in BF3...

 

[Ruskie]

R* already demonstrated that successfully. They make all of their games on RAGE, but then again all of their games are realistic. Dunno how would RAGE work with some fantasy RPG or FPS.

 

[ultragpu]

I'm all for Frost Bite 2 over UE3 "not the Samaritan version of UE3 lol", the inclusion of a fully deferred renderer alone would convince me, also more dynamic destruction and HDR should make horror games like Dead Space 3 look much better.

 

[Fafalada]

I do wonder if other publishers like Microsoft, Nintendo or THQ plan to move towards this path.

One thing to note is that EA has been trying to do this since around 2003 - it wasn't exactly a path covered with success.

Being able to hit the ground running with an in-house engine and fully developed tool chain should grant you some benefits right?

Depends on the tool-chain you inherit. One of the reasons I've changed my perspective on in-house tech is that over last 5 years I've seen multiple examples of it actively hindering development.
Not to say external licences are any sort of silver bullet - but at least they are forced to improve fast if they want to survive.

If the studio was previously using a 3rd party middleware, it makes sense, but not so much otherwise.

There are business-side justifications for it that may or may not be grounded in reality. Personally I think tech-choices are all too often muddied with non-tech reasoning and results are almost never for the better.

 

[ERP]

One thing to note is that EA has been trying to do this since around 2003 - it wasn't exactly a path covered with success.

It's pretty cyclic at EA, I believe they are currently in a use whatever tech you want phase.
About once a decade someone in management at EA decides they can save money by centralizing all tech development, they proceed to jam tech down the developers throats, waste 100's of millions of dollars then back off when they look at the what it cost them.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

How does it make sense to determine the gap based on one or two narrow aspect of each game?

By this logic there is the same gap between BF3 and UC3 since UC3 also has many things baked in.

You do realize the determination of there not being a clear gap, by Ranger, was made from far less than technical aspects, right? His was only from a "look" standpoint. That would be much worse of a comparison. Why haven't you made any statements toward that?

Anyway, I like original engines for games, but I can understand why EA seems to be using the hell out of the engine.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Funnily enough, my opinion is the exact opposite. UE3 served well for the trilogy but new games could benefit from a lot of FB2 tech.

Just remember the Mako and look at those landscapes in BF3...

Ok Laa-Yosh...

You sold me on the idea!

Bioware? I hope you're listening?

 

[kagemaru]

You do realize the determination of there not being a clear gap, by Ranger, was made from far less than technical aspects, right? His was only from a "look" standpoint. That would be much worse of a comparison. Why haven't you made any statements toward that?

Anyway, I like original engines for games, but I can understand why EA seems to be using the hell out of the engine.

Simple, because Ranger doesn't have an agenda.

Ok Laa-Yosh...

You sold me on the idea!

Bioware? I hope you're listening?

Assuming they are going to make more ME games next gen, I'd love to see how it looks running on FB2. I could see the engine working out pretty well for the game's design.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Simple, because Ranger doesn't have an agenda.

That is the excuse one gives when they don't want to give the real reason. It's a very poor excuse. How do you know he doesn't have an agenda here? You don't. And, by not responding to his post in a similar fashion, it makes you look suspect. I was talking tech in a tech forum. He was not.

Is EA talking about switching over their sports games to the Frostbite 2 engine? I think they might benefit, nicely, from it.

 

[Sigfried1977]

Well, the latest Need for Speed game certainly hasn't benefitted from FB2. Compared to Hot Pursuit with Criterion's tech under the hood, The Run looks like garbage.