Next Gen 2D Graphics

[Nesh]

This is inspired from the other threads related to the next gen console technology and effects but I believe it deserves a different thread.

We concentrated to the 3D rendering but where we have seen smaller improvements is on the 2D graphics from gen to gen.

The main issue appears to be time and cost in producing frame by frame high quality high resolution 2D assets.

King of Fighters 13 characters if I recall needed around 9 months each to create because of the high quality and the number of frames needed per character.

Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD initial characters where downgraded due to the time and cost they saw they would need to finish the game.

What if someone creates some type of middleware or new technique that frees cost and time? That renders various frames automatically from a 3D model and then "molds"/"processes" the assets to look as if they were hand drawn for example?

2D visuals have not improved much. Sonic 4 lacks the "hand drawn" look and animation and looks less interesting than its 3D counterparts.
Limbo used a different art direction too so it doesnt need too much detail to create the right atmosphere and "feelings"
Braid looks interesting though, but yet the improvements in 2D are somewhat stagnant.

I d love to see some strong improvements in next gen 2D visuals as well, not just in 3D. It would be interesting if next gen consoles opened up some new possibilities in 2D rendering

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'd say we're already there with SF4 and Valkyria Chronicles. These prove 2D 'art' derived from 3D objects is plausible and convincing, just needing some better IQ in some places. It'd be easy enough to render high-quality assets and turn them into sprites. But if you want true 2D art, it'll cost truckloads depending on how much you use. There's no solution to that (the artists will be pleased to hear!). As 2D games are fairly niche, there must be limited incentive to invest in them. 3D games with 2D-style effects make more sense.

I'm also curious to hear from someone who knows how creating a load of static frames compares workwise with creating complex, animatable models. I wouldn't be surprised if it's no more costly.

 

[Nesh]

Here is something as a reference.

These images have been posted some time ago in the forums and of course the conclusion was that something like that cannot be achieved because its hard to hand drawn everything in such detail

But it is at least a reference target that it would be interesting if something similar can be achieved through some creative and innovative rendering tricks (if they can be created)

 

[DeadlyNinja]

One thing I hate about current gen cel-shading (yeah, I know it's not really 2D) is that there's a very artificial look to it. Like you can tell it's cel-shading. I hope next gen cures this problem.

 

[Arwin]

I think the engine Ubisoft created for Rayman Origins is very good. I bet you could do those two examples below with it pretty much already.

 

[Iron Tiger]

Height/normal maps can be procedurally generated and applied to simple, unshaded 2D cels for realtime lighting and shading. Animators wouldn't have to spend as much time drawing each frame. I'm unable to find a paper I'd read on a technique that may be used for Warner Bros. animation, but I think the game Skullgirls uses something similar.

 

[Prophecy2k]

The defacto best cell shading I have seen this generation has been those Naruto Ultimate Ninja storm games from the Japanese dev Cyberconnect 2.

Those games look even better than the animated cartoon in my eyes, and if not for the obvious aliasing issues, would be almost indistinguishable from 2D animated Japanese anime.

Far more convincing for me than stuff like Valkyria Chronicles etc. If we had more games with the quality of cell shading and animation as those Naruto games then I would be happy. I'd gladly take that over 2D hand drawn stuff.

Also, imho SF4 looks horrible and doesn't look in anyway close to being 2D. Mostly because i hate the art style, and have no idea why they drew the characters like that over the fantastic anime-inspired 2D art styles of SF3 and the SFAlpha games.... errrghhh

 

[Sigfried1977]

I'd say we're already there with SF4 and Valkyria Chronicles.

I completely disagree here. It's not even close. Props to Streetfighter for getting the exaggerated facial animations right, but there are still lots of key elements missing, like properly animated hair, muscles and clothes for example.

The Naruto games come fairly close, but they still don't look hand drawn either.
I'm pretty convinced that the only way to make something look truly hand drawn is to actually go and draw it, and that's not going to change. That's especially true when talking about anime, where a bit of low frame rate jerkiness is actually part of the recipe.

 

[DeadlyNinja]

The Naruto games come fairly close, but they still don't look hand drawn either.
I'm pretty convinced that the only way to make something look truly hand drawn is to actually go and draw it, and that's not going to change. That's especially true when talking about anime, where a bit of low frame rate jerkiness is actually part of the recipe.

Heck, even from a still image, cel-shading still doesn't looks quite right yet. You are still very much aware of it being 3D polygonal graphics.

Muramasa on the Wii looks amazing, but the way it's animated almost looks like a flash game.

 

[nomad]

I think the engine Ubisoft created for Rayman Origins is very good. I bet you could do those two examples below with it pretty much already.

Yup, UBIart Framework probably could probably do those. Using illustrator like programs with skeletal animation could that "hand drawn" look.
http://ubi-art.uk.ubi.com/

 

[steampoweredgod]

Here is something as a reference.

These images have been posted some time ago in the forums and of course the conclusion was that something like that cannot be achieved because its hard to hand drawn everything in such detail

But it is at least a reference target that it would be interesting if something similar can be achieved through some creative and innovative rendering tricks (if they can be created)

Beautiful and it will be nice to play such, I think we can all agree it will be a visceral experience in itself.

I think hand drawn games with this level of detail would have an audience despite the ridiculous expense.

Sonic 1 2 3 and sonic and knuckles are just so so far ahead of anything that had ever been conceived. I predict they will become classics studied for their invaluable truths and beauty.

 

[Flux]

Well they can add HD support for older games for one.

imagine a 1080x1920(32bit) Hand drawn sonic 2/3,Contra 3, or Super Mario World 2 with multi-layered stages, .


That with modern level shading/lighting techniques would be awesome.

 

[Arwin]

Looking at Trine 2, I have to say that 2.5D in that game looks very promising. I don't think we're very far off the point where 2.5D and 3D can look as good as most 2D ever could, with the added benefits of beautiful dynamic lighting and smoke effects.

Remember that I'm saying this as someone who has believed very strongly that 2D graphics have for a long, long time been undervalued versus 3D graphics, and that the move to 3D graphics has in many cases lead to easthetically ugly/dull material compared to some of the 2D stuff that has been out there.

I only briefly played Trine 2 after I got it for free as a Plus member because of the EU certification delay. I didn't like the first enough, so I would probably not have bought it, but now I'm kind of glad I didn't miss out on just having a look. Can barely imagine what it could look like on a high-end PC (but I'll see if youtube can tell me anyway - EDIT: if I don't watch it full-screen, then I can imagine how beautiful it must look on a high-end PC, but the PS3/360 versions are no slouch either).

I'm thinking if you take this one gen further, we're finally clear of our muddled 3D past.

 

[Flux]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94Hn1XhyWB0



This is when 2d is done the right way. Hopefully developers for the iOS or Xboxlive arcade/Wiiware/PSN can replicate what some group of persons did as a hobby.

 

[Sigfried1977]

Nah, this is 2d done right:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjhvA3NSa78

 

[function]

IMO, 2D done right is when the artist chooses the particular emphasis of every frame and how long that frame is held for. Modern 3D - as - 2D or algorithmically scaled, rotated and positioned sub elements (of a larger 2D object) can look very pretty but seems to lose some something important. It's a lot smoother though. Tradeoffs I guess.

I still prefer the likes of Street Fighter 3 to the likes of Street Fighter 4 though.

 

[Nesh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94Hn1XhyWB0



This is when 2d is done the right way. Hopefully developers for the iOS or Xboxlive arcade/Wiiware/PSN can replicate what some group of persons did as a hobby.

Wait what? Is that fan made?? That lookes 10 times better than SEGA's own Sonic 4!!

 

[Flux]

IMO, 2D done right is when the artist chooses the particular emphasis of every frame and how long that frame is held for. Modern 3D - as - 2D or algorithmically scaled, rotated and positioned sub elements (of a larger 2D object) can look very pretty but seems to lose some something important. It's a lot smoother though. Tradeoffs I guess.

I still prefer the likes of Street Fighter 3 to the likes of Street Fighter 4 though.

I agree on Street Fighter 4. No parry no Kara no playstyle systems(vism, Super Arts,grooves etc)Just Ultra away!...pfft next.

Street Fighter 3 Third Strike (yun's push attack animation WOW!),Marvel vs Capcom 2,Jojo's Bizarre Adventure,Warzard, Super Mario World 2,Earth Worm Jim,Metal Slug 3,newer Castlevania series,Guilty Gear games(not to mention a lot of Japanese only scrolling shooters) are some of the best drawn 2d games ever made. (DKC series is not really drawn so yeah.)

If they could just take what they did in those games at 1080p/60fps/32bbp,add modern shader effects, and add modern realistic and accurate per pixel lighting/shadowing then it can called next gen.

It's just when you have 3d games with excellent 3d modeling like starcraft 2, Crysis series, final fantasy XIII,GoW3, Mass Effect 3 and the Bioshock series. How do you top that?

 

[SedentaryJourney]

What about this? It uses traditional cel-animation for characters and 3D for everything else. I see interaction with 3D objects being a possible issue here.

 

[Arwin]

What about this? It uses traditional cel-animation for characters and 3D for everything else. I see interaction with 3D objects being a possible issue here.

A little disjointed but it can work ... I noticed a PS2 platformer that's just been re-released on PSN does a similar thing pretty nicely: