Formula 1 - 2012 Season

[Snyder]

So if you disregard the back marker Caterham's and Marussia's etc, and the Toro Rosso's diving out of his way...he basically passed Di Resta (don't remember seeing that one tbh - it looked to me like Di Resta was behind after the pit stop), Senna, Grosjean and Button on the track - with a car set up for straight line speed and faster tyres. In doing so he hit Senna and passed Grosjean off the track.

I guess that's why I'm not all that impressed.

* You missed Schumacher
* "In doing so..." - no, he didn't. He didn't overtake Senna when touching him. He overtook Senna afterwards - with a broken wing, no less. And he let Grosjean pass again because of the off-track situation and overtook him a second time, this time regularily.

 

[Phil]

I agree - that Ferrari is not slow. The perception that it is a slow car may come from the fact that Massa has been underperforming pretty much most of the season in it (due to various factors), but I'm not at all convinced it is slow or that it is purely Alonsos talend extracting the impossible from it.

In fact - analysis of the Ferrari point to it being a very capable car on race day, but slightly compromised during qualifying due to how the DRS works (which is a large factor on qualifying day).

I would say though, that Red Bull is the best team currently - their pitstops and strategic execution has been pretty flawless, the car very reliable (well in Vettels case - disregarding the alternator issue) and Vettel has been doing his part also - remaining cool at the beginning of the season when things didn't go his way and now performing well in it. And it's quite amazing what Newey seems to be able to find and improve.

 

[jimbo75]

No matter what Vettel does, he doesn't get too much credit for it. It's always due to others like Newey, when he wins and always his fault when he doesn't win. Look at the stats he's put out, can you really ask more from him. What would he have to do be viewed as one who get's a lot out of a car. Win every race by lapping the second?

It should be clear to everyone that the Red Bull moved into a different league a few races ago, and it's no surprise that Vettel started winning races when the car was at it's best. That's what he's always done.

He's been out-qualified by Webber 8 times this year though, and outraced on many occasions as well. He just doesn't have what it takes in a bad car, but Alonso was finishing podium after podium in a car that was struggling to get out of Q2.

It's going to take a bit more than one race - starting from the back with a faster car and everyone else falling over themselves - to convince most neutrals that he's anything like as good as Alonso is.

 

[Phil]

jimbo75, I believe one part of your post has been answered by current analysis of the Ferrari, in that the DRS is causing stability issues during qualifying, which the race pace being less affected (due to only DRS on the straights and when being activated). It's difficult to judge both drivers since they're using different cars. A direct comparison is rather difficult.

Webber may have outqualified Vettel this year on more than a few occasions - but IMO, Webber is better than most people seem to think. And he's certainly very strong at both Monaco and Silverstone. Qualifying analysis of both Webber and Alonso show that they are the most evenly matched drivers this year, with only a few hundreds seperating their gaps over each other. Webber being good, doesn't make Vettel worse or vice-versa IMO.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Yeah Webber is pretty good at qualifying. It would actually be 11-7 for Vettel without the grid penalty he got in Abu Dhabi, also Vettel got a bad start in the season, losing the first three to Webber, but since then has shown pretty good form.

After Massa got his form back he has shown that he can keep up with Alonso on occasion and perhaps could have even challenged Alonso if that would be possible at Ferrari, like it has been with Red Bull, when both drivers still had a chance to win the WC.

 

[Billy Idol]

Jimbo...you are incorrect, sorry to be this direct.

Look at the points Webber has, look at Vettels points...I hope you see a difference and I hope you understand that he is by no means a bad driver.

Furthermore, he won his first race with Red Bull, where the car and team was medium tier at most before Adrian designed it completely new.

Alonso is one of the best drivers out there, sure. The best one? Who knows...but I remember his McLaren season with Hamilton in his team...and he had hard times imo.

 

[Kaotik]

Vettel won first time in Toro Rosso, not Red Bull

 

[DJ12]

yes but he did that without overtaking

And crashed into how many?

The guy can only race from the front.

 

[Kaotik]

And crashed into how many?

The guy can only race from the front.

If it was Hamilton or Alonso driving that Red Bull his drive would be praised to heavens, how it's so incredible to raise from starting at pits to 3rd spot and whatnot

There's 4 about equally good, proven drivers out there atm, none can be put above the others - Alonso, Hamilton, Räikkönen and Vettel (in alphabetical order, just so no-one makes any conclusions from the order)

 

[jimbo75]

If you put them all in the same car that never broke down, Hamilton would win every race and Alonso would be a close second, with Vettel 3rd and Raikkonen fighting with Button and Webber for the other top 6 places. I'm not even sure about that last part as drivers like Perez, Hulkenberg and Maldonado are also very fast.

As for Webber...yes I know he's a good driver. However since joining Williams in 2005 he has basically equalled his teammates Heidfeld, Rosberg and Coulthard. None of them are world beaters tbh.

Let's not forget that Button is a world champion and is frequently shown up to be a great deal slower than Hamilton (Hamilton has outqualified him 15-3), and Massa came as close to being a world champion as you can get without actually being it.

 

[Billy Idol]

Vettel won first time in Toro Rosso, not Red Bull

Yeah, sorry...true!

 

[Kaotik]

If you put them all in the same car that never broke down, Hamilton would win every race and Alonso would be a close second, with Vettel 3rd and Raikkonen fighting with Button and Webber for the other top 6 places. I'm not even sure about that last part as drivers like Perez, Hulkenberg and Maldonado are also very fast.

As for Webber...yes I know he's a good driver. However since joining Williams in 2005 he has basically equalled his teammates Heidfeld, Rosberg and Coulthard. None of them are world beaters tbh.

Let's not forget that Button is a world champion and is frequently shown up to be a great deal slower than Hamilton (Hamilton has outqualified him 15-3), and Massa came as close to being a world champion as you can get without actually being it.

This must be one the biggest loads of BS you've spouted in this thread

Many seem to forget for example the fact that Kimi was equalling and beating Schumacher - only problem was his McLaren was unrealiable as hell, which prevented him from actually winning the championships there - same thing Alonso was praised for simply because he had the most reliable car on his championship seasons.

 

[jimbo75]

Kimi has been outqualified 9-8 by Grosjean this year, sometimes by large margins. It's fine to have favourites but please try to retain some semblance of common sense. Do you think Alonso and Hamilton would be getting outqualified by what is basically a new guy? Well we already know that Alonso outqualified him 7-0 in 2009 when he took over from Piquet Jnr.

Kimi is not particularly fast, he's just solid and very reliable - that still hasn't been enough to win him the championship this year. He lost it because he wasn't fast enough.

 

[Kaotik]

Kimi has been outqualified 9-8 by Grosjean this year, sometimes by large margins. It's fine to have favourites but please try to retain some semblance of common sense. Do you think Alonso and Hamilton would be getting outqualified by what is basically a new guy? Well we already know that Alonso outqualified him 7-0 in 2009 when he took over from Piquet Jnr.

Kimi is not particularly fast, he's just solid and reliable.

Yes, that's why Kimi
...isn't 3rd in total fastest laps in race
...doesn't have 2 different entries on the shared 1st spot of most fastest laps in a season
...doesn't have 8th and shared 5th place on highest percentage of fastest laps in a season
...doesn't have 2nd and shared 4th place on most consecutive fastest laps

oh, except he is all that, and only other current driver on any of the lists (which include top10 spots) besides Kimi is Schumacher.

As for your Alonso comparison, Grosjean was completely "fresh driver" back then, and the car was built around Alonso, on Lotus the car isn't built for Kimi, and especially in the early season suited Grosjean a lot better.

If Alonso or Hamilton would be put to a car which doesn't fit his style too well, I have no doubt a fast fresh driver could outqualify them if the car suits him better.

 

[jimbo75]

Fact is, when Kimi won the WC in 2007 he was even outqualified 9-8 by Massa and finished behind him in 7 of the 17 races (and only because Massa got disqualifed once and retired in another). He's never been particularly fast, just very consistent.

 

[Gerry]

Ah shit jimbo. What the hell have you started now?

*runs for cover*

 

[jimbo75]

I don't mind a bit of favouritism and patriotism but let's be honest - if you said Raikkonen was in the same class as Alonso you'd get some funny looks from people and they'd just assume you were Finnish

He's a good driver but there's a reason why Alonso is consistently rated higher than him in the polls.

BBC - Raikkonen doesn't make the top 20 http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20124557, Alonso 10th.

Autosport - Raikkonen 22nd, Alonso 9th http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/

 

[Kaotik]

Fact is, when Kimi won the WC in 2007 he was even outqualified 9-8 by Massa and finished behind him in 7 of the 17 races (and only because Massa got disqualifed once and retired in another). He's never been particularly fast, just very consistent.

Qualifying is only one part of the GP weekend and not any ultimate "speed meter", it doesn't help if you're faster in one lap if you're slower in actual racepace, and it definitely doesn't make you faster.

While Massa got disqualified once, Kimis car broke once more than Massas did, so they finished just as many races, not to mention the fact that Massa definitely wasn't slow before his accident - he was 3rd in championship the year before for example, even though the car was built only for Schumacher - on the other hand he did have advantage over Kimi on the car on the next season, having been able to affect in the way it was designed. For the next seasons Kimi not only had more bad luck with car breaking down than Massa, but behind the scenes there was a lot you should read about more.

But I suppose this is all irrelevant, it's becoming clear that even if Kimi was driving a damn HRT to pole and winning every GP, Hamilton and Alonso would be still leaps and bounds faster than him

 

[jimbo75]

There's no need to wonder if Hamilton and Alonso would be faster than Raikkonen in the same car when Massa was in the past and Grosjean is currently - it's just logical common sense.

The amount of fastest laps is simply an indication that he finishes more races. You aren't going to get fastest laps unless you finish races, which he does more than anyone else. Prost had more than double the amount of fastest laps than Senna - would you say he was faster?

Find me any publication outside of Finland that claims Raikkonen is on the same level as Alonso is - I have serious doubts that any exist.

 

[Kaotik]

There's no need to wonder if Hamilton and Alonso would be faster than Raikkonen in the same car when Massa was in the past and Grosjean is currently - it's just logical common sense.

The amount of fastest laps is simply an indication that he finishes more races. You aren't going to get fastest laps unless you finish races, which he does more than anyone else. Prost had more than double the amount of fastest laps than Senna - would you say he was faster?

Find me any publication outside of Finland that claims Raikkonen is on the same level as Alonso is - I have serious doubts that any exist.

I'll need to take a google in my hand, there's no doubt a lot outside spanish media. (at this particular moment or over history btw?)

There's a lot of need to wonder, Massa hasn't been anywhere near his level after the accident so comparison is invalid, Grosjean was completely fresh when he joined midseason - and just to so you realize how much that can affect, check the season Massa got into his accident - Fisichella didn't finish any higher than he did in his Force India after being thrown into unfamiliar car.
And you should really read what happened behind the curtains at Ferrari during Kimis time there to understand even half of the speed he seemed to be missing on couple seasons.

Let's take a look at those fastest laps

2005, Kimi gets 10 fastest laps of the season, didn't check how many Alonso got but under 6 anyway, since 7 would have gotten him on the top10 list.
Alonso finished 2 more races than Kimi did that season

2008, Kimi gets 10 fastest laps of the season, didn't check how many Alonso or Hamilton got, but under 6 anyway, since 7 would have gotten them on the top10 list.
Alonso finished 2 more races than Kimi did that season
Hamilton finished 4 more races than Kimi did that season

Neither should be possible according to you, since Kimi isn't fast, only reliable


edit:
Let's add more statistics, I couldn't find the amount of actual races finished, but I did find total laps driven by each
Alonso:
Total laps: 10798
Fastest laps: 19

Räikkönen:
Total laps: 9008
Fastest laps: 37

Hamilton:
Total laps: 5936
Fastest laps: 10

Alonso having finished over 1500 more laps, I'd say it's safe to say he has also finished more races