Wii U hardware discussion and investigation *rename

[Blazkowicz]

first I'd say it's consistent with using 128bit vanilla ddr3. clock it at 900MHz and it's faster than the x360 ; saves on cost and power versus gddr5.
the saying about 1.5GB that can be upgraded to 2GB could be explained : for 1.5GB they'd use 1024MB on one 64bit partition, and 512MB on the other, differing densities as on geforce GTX 550 ti.

though, is there still such low density, fast ddr3?

then the GPU, we know nothing but it gets some improvement at bandwith utilisation and other stuff compared to xbox 360, probably. it could be as low as 256 SP VLIW4, or 320 SP VLIW 5, or something.
we know it's custom, does nintendo leaves out tesselation altogether and tells developers this is for their own good, use the old content creation pipelines? or they include it as good as on the radeon 6970.

 

[french toast]

Of course we will

Come on ninty, prove us wrong and convince me to get my wallet out....quite fancy a ninty console...

I'm not looking for a miracle...just decent cpu, 2gb ram and hd 6770 level gpu ...it's not asking the earth that now is it?? **sob**

 

[bgassassin]

that gpu should be (at least) 10x current gen (7x flops, 9x+ transistors, plus a fudge factor for being so much more advanced/efficient per flop), where wii u looks 1x-1.5x current gen.

not a lot of gray area there.

Which goes right back around to judging launch titles as a final indicator.

Except not everyone knows that, and some are still hoping that Wuu is going to be far better.

I guess this another daft semantics debate where people are reading different meanings into the unqualified term 'generation'. Obviously the flexibility of the hardware with SM4+ is a generation ahead of PS360 and should enable effects/techniques not present in PS360 games, but in terms of power, game complexity, and what games Wuu'll run, it's looking to be positioned alongside this gen. If it had enough grunt to match a proper next-gen (assuming Sony and MS release proper 8-10x+ power consoles) then we'd be seeing far better visuals than we are seeing.

If we have a timeline of the major hardware progressions in the console space, with peaks in the year or two spanning new technology launches (PS1+N64, PS2+XB, PS3+XB360, PS4+XB3), the hardware in Wii was aligned with the hardware of the previous generation. Wuu is looking to be something like this gen hardware in terms of performance (depending on caveats I've mentioned earlier).

So keeping to the topic of the Wii U GPU, soeone can hazard a guess as its make-up based on a contemporary part with approximately PS360 (x1,5, 2?) performance. We know it's not an order of magnitude more powerful, which is a layman's definition of next-gen.

Ok "most" know it.

The issue IMO is that some people are setting such a low bar that the ones who share a view like mine are viewed as talking about Wii U as if it will be on par with PS4 and Xbox 3.

As for the GPU looking strictly at GFLOPs I would guess that GPU7 (the early codename) will be between 480-800 so 2-~3x Xenos.

first I'd say it's consistent with using 128bit vanilla ddr3. clock it at 900MHz and it's faster than the x360 ; saves on cost and power versus gddr5.
the saying about 1.5GB that can be upgraded to 2GB could be explained : for 1.5GB they'd use 1024MB on one 64bit partition, and 512MB on the other, differing densities as on geforce GTX 550 ti.

though, is there still such low density, fast ddr3?

then the GPU, we know nothing but it gets some improvement at bandwith utilisation and other stuff compared to xbox 360, probably. it could be as low as 256 SP VLIW4, or 320 SP VLIW 5, or something.
we know it's custom, does nintendo leaves out tesselation altogether and tells developers this is for their own good, use the old content creation pipelines? or they include it as good as on the radeon 6970.

That's a clock speed I can see for the memory as I'm expecting Nintendo to keep their "synced clocks". And as pointed out by wsippel, while Nintendo hasn't given clocks for other components, the audio DSP according to the early target specs was 120Mhz. I could see 1800, 900, and 600 clocks for the CPU, memory, and GPU respectively.

The SP count would be below what the dev kits had. And the target specs showed tessellation is a part of it (though I was told that last year). The question about this is will it be an old unit or a modern one. Considering the GPU was finished about six months or so ago, I'd like to assume it will have a modern one.

 

[Nightz]

Ha where is the fun in that? A controller 'pic-a-mix'...That's utterly stupid!....they make the excuse that performance will be taking a low priority to the controller, that a great deal of their budget went into this controller...but lets face it the budget must have been pretty small.

Actually its a unique selling point. You can mix and match controllers for unique game play experiences.

And also for racing games and traditional fighting games, the classic controller is more than adequate.

 

[french toast]

Look you can put a positive spin on anything, using multiple controllers is not unique, they were doing that in the 80s and every other console does that also.

It's not cool when the only reason you can't have anymore than 1 of the gimmick controllers is because they cheaped out on the hardware.

Kinnect is also a gimmick, as is plastation move and wii remote, at least you can have your friends round for some fun, in this case you have to sit there like a spanner whilst your mates whip out the last generation wii remotes.

Basically nintendo is releasing the console they should have in 2006...now that would have been revolutionary.

 

[Blazkowicz]

That's a clock speed I can see for the memory as I'm expecting Nintendo to keep their "synced clocks". And as pointed out by wsippel, while Nintendo hasn't given clocks for other components, the audio DSP according to the early target specs was 120Mhz. I could see 1800, 900, and 600 clocks for the CPU, memory, and GPU respectively.

The SP count would be below what the dev kits had. And the target specs showed tessellation is a part of it (though I was told that last year). The question about this is will it be an old unit or a modern one. Considering the GPU was finished about six months or so ago, I'd like to assume it will have a modern one.

synced clocks? I don't know why you would do that. whatever reason existed a decade ago, this probably doesn't apply to modern hardware (I remember all 3dfx boards having a 1:1 reliationship between GPU and memory clock, but every other GPU I had didn't care). why lose a few percents of performance for the sake of round numbers.

but thank for the other information

 

[3dcgi]

We know it's not an order of magnitude more powerful, which is a layman's definition of next-gen.

Most layman don't even know what order of magnitude means.

 

[bgassassin]

Look you can put a positive spin on anything, using multiple controllers is not unique, they were doing that in the 80s and every other console does that also.

It's not cool when the only reason you can't have anymore than 1 of the gimmick controllers is because they cheaped out on the hardware.

Kinnect is also a gimmick, as is plastation move and wii remote, at least you can have your friends round for some fun, in this case you have to sit there like a spanner whilst your mates whip out the last generation wii remotes.

Basically nintendo is releasing the console they should have in 2006...now that would have been revolutionary.

The same goes for negative spin. One of the first things confirmed at that poor conference was that it can use two Upad controllers. You should get caught up on your info before using that "negative spin".

I agree with the latter. I've never been really happy with the hardware direction of Wii and it's coming back on them. Wii being a "360-lite" would have made a much bigger difference IMO and probably would have made the Wiimote more acceptable for different types of game genres. And that also affected Nintendo's hardware choices for Wii U. Compared to Wii this is beyond what would be considered as a generational leap. It just doesn't go well beyond PS360.

And I've never been a fan of using gimmick in a negative context. When it comes to products, especially consumer electronic products, you need have something or do something better than the competition to stand out.

synced clocks? I don't know why you would do that. whatever reason existed a decade ago, this probably doesn't apply to modern hardware (I remember all 3dfx boards having a 1:1 reliationship between GPU and memory clock, but every other GPU I had didn't care). why lose a few percents of performance for the sake of round numbers.

but thank for the other information

As much as Nintendo is trying to adapt, they still have their quirky moments and I can see the clock speeds being one of those moments. I'm still bothered by the likelihood of this thing having USB 2.0 ports for six years when they plan to rely on external HDDs as a method for saving data and what not. With it having two USB 2.0 controllers, you would think they could at least change one to a 3.0 controller.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Most layman don't even know what order of magnitude means.

But they recognise it with a "Wow! Look at that!" response. With Roderic's reply we see the problem of trying to talk unquantifiable generalisations. Technically an order of magnitude power increase might require 7 years (although factoring in improvements in architecture as well as increases in silicon complexity, I think a '10x power' in 5/6 years is possible), but in terms of Joe Gamer's response, seeing a new box as much better than the old, whatever that metric is represents the difference between one generation and another. With that very loose definition, Wii U is not going to be next-gen. Ergo it's 'this gen' even if it's, by another metric (scientific evaluation), several times more powerful than PS360.

 

[french toast]

True about the negative spin however it is you who needs to catch up on info and also read what I wrote.

It will in future utilise 2 controllers but games will be cut down to 30fps when 2 are used....and when the console is released it will only have access to a single controller regardless.

Being as the control pad is wvga and is only going to be transmitting basic info whilst hooked up to the tv, the fact that is sucks performance from the system like that should itself put the processing power into perspective.

 

[bgassassin]

True about the negative spin however it is you who needs to catch up on info and also read what I wrote.

It will in future utilise 2 controllers but games will be cut down to 30fps when 2 are used....and when the console is released it will only have access to a single controller regardless.

Being as the control pad is wvga and is only going to be transmitting basic info whilst hooked up to the tv, the fact that is sucks performance from the system like that should itself put the processing power into perspective.

I'm more than familiar with that info. And this post didn't say what you said now, nor is it relevant to your original point.

 

[Rodéric]

With Roderic's reply we see the problem of trying to talk unquantifiable generalisations.

Take into account that I do not think (again I have no insider info) that Wii U competitors are going to be significantly better.
If neither are, then according to you, there's no "next gen"...

The thing is, Nintendo with the Wii showed that people are interested in accessible games, and not so much about hardware. We are a minority I believe. (And I'm stuck between being a 3D programmer wanting the best gfx and an avid gamer wanting the best gameplay ^^)
If both MS & Sony consider that they have no incentive to release a much more capable system because it won't generate that much more money (ie win on console sold), then the upcoming systems might very well be on par or a little better than Wii U but not much better.

I don't know whether it will be the case, but I can't shake the idea that a console sold with a profit could be seen as a much better model than what happened with PS360...

 

[french toast]

I'm more than familiar with that info. And this post didn't say what you said now, nor is it relevant to your original point.

Sorry I'm being dumb today ...ay?

 

[Xenus]

Take into account that I do not think (again I have no insider info) that Wii U competitors are going to be significantly better.
If neither are, then according to you, there's no "next gen"...

The thing is, Nintendo with the Wii showed that people are interested in accessible games, and not so much about hardware. We are a minority I believe. (And I'm stuck between being a 3D programmer wanting the best gfx and an avid gamer wanting the best gameplay ^^)
If both MS & Sony consider that they have no incentive to release a much more capable system because it won't generate that much more money (ie win on console sold), then the upcoming systems might very well be on par or a little better than Wii U but not much better.

I don't know whether it will be the case, but I can't shake the idea that a console sold with a profit could be seen as a much better model than what happened with PS360...

Here in lies the crux of the matter. I don't see either Sony or Microsoft going low end unless they can be assured the other is doing so otherwise they automatically concede the high-end if the other is willing to go there. Sure they will be more cost conscious then the PS3 but I don't see them going to Wii like levels or anywhere near that low. I foresee something closer to a Vita style approach.

 

[TheD]

Fact: No games we have seen show any signs of the WiiU being more powerful than the 360 or the PS3.

Fact: A system launched today would not have games that rely on rendering techniques from 2005, so they would never look like early 360 games even if the system was only as powerful as the 360.

Fact: MS and Sony would not make a new console that is only slightly more powerful than what they have at the moment due to the fact that they would splinter their install base for no good reason.

Thus it is safe to say that the PS4 and Xbox next will be much more powerful than the WiiU.

Any other conclusion has no supporting evidence and is illogical.

 

[itsmydamnation]

Fact: No games we have seen show any signs of the WiiU being more powerful than the 360 or the PS3.

Fact: A system launched today would not have games that rely on rendering techniques from 2005, so they would never look like early 360 games even if the system was only as powerful as the 360.

Fact: MS and Sony would not make a new console that is only slightly more powerful than what they have at the moment due to the fact that they would splinter their install base for no good reason.

Thus it is safe to say that the PS4 and Xbox next will be much more powerful than the WiiU.

Any other conclusion has no supporting evidence and is illogical.

fact lack of evidence is NOT EVIDENCE any other conclusion is illogical.

 

[Kaotik]

Go compare earliest PS360 games to the previous generation and they were a world more advanced.

Of course, but before we see final products it's too early to judge, though Sony rep commented that in their view, Wii U is "generation of it's own", ahead of PS360 gen, but behind next next gen

 

[Kaotik]

Fact: No games we have seen show any signs of the WiiU being more powerful than the 360 or the PS3.

Fact: We haven't see any retail build games

Fact: A system launched today would not have games that rely on rendering techniques from 2005, so they would never look like early 360 games even if the system was only as powerful as the 360.

No, the early games look like newest XB360 games, not early 360 games,

Fact: MS and Sony would not make a new console that is only slightly more powerful than what they have at the moment due to the fact that they would splinter their install base for no good reason.

Fact: You don't know what MS & Sony have planned for next gen

Thus it is safe to say that the PS4 and Xbox next will be much more powerful than the WiiU.

Any other conclusion has no supporting evidence and is illogical.

Probably true that PS4 and XBoxNext are more powerful than Wii U, but your "conclusions" are illogical and without anything real to back them up

 

[Kb-Smoker]

These are the "facts."

The wiiu is in a small case.
The wiiu is going to be cheap and they will make money day one.
The multi platform games do not look any better on the wiiu compared to the ps360 right now.

The biggest issue I always had when people say the wiiu was going to be powerful was that case. It is so small and has I think one or two small fans. It cannot be more than 40-50 watts . You just dont have much tdp to play with.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Take into account that I do not think (again I have no insider info) that Wii U competitors are going to be significantly better.

Absolutely, that's a possiblity, although current rumours seem to be suggesting that's not going to happen. If it did happen and MS and Sony low-balled, then next-gen would be a unique generation defined just by content and not an increase in power. I guess that'd be the death of the Console Tech forum then!

If both MS & Sony consider that they have no incentive to release a much more capable system because it won't generate that much more money (ie win on console sold), then the upcoming systems might very well be on par or a little better than Wii U but not much better.

I've argued as much myself, much to TheChefO's and others' annoyance. If the latest rumours are to be believed though, we're in for another conventional hardware upgrade, even if not as large an upgrade as other generations to keep costs down. The general impression to me is currently that we'll have another PS360+Wii set of hardware. What Nintendo have shown so far certainly places them close to the previous generation of hardware.

Of course, but before we see final products it's too early to judge...

Not too early to evaluate though. Like I say, every generation that has had a genreational advance in processing power has demonstrated that generational advance in the earliest showings of the software, even if just rendering the previous generation quality at higher resolution. For Nintendo to have a box something like 5x as powerful as PS360 and yet not be able to show anything of that extra power so far would be very surprising and odd.