Wii U hardware discussion and investigation *rename

[Nightz]

Better still why would you want to fork out £250-£300 on a console twice the price of its competitors, with the same graphics, with less media capabilities (for the most part) less games, and the complete inability to play with even 1 friend or family member in the same room at launch??

I just want to correct something here. You can play against someone in the same room as you. Using a Classic Controller or Wii-mote.

 

[bgassassin]

Of course he was just trying to say the graphics won't be bad compared to the competition, unfortunately he's also making another statement.

Put it this way, aside from being a nintendo fan (which you are, no shame they make fantastic games) why would you trade in your ps360 for a wuu?

Better still why would you want to fork out £250-£300 on a console twice the price of its competitors, with the same graphics, with less media capabilities (for the most part) less games, and the complete inability to play with even 1 friend or family member in the same room at launch??

I'm sorry it's ridiculous for 2012, I'm angry because I was looking forward to buy one, I feel a bit cheated especially as I know it's going to be obsolete performance wise 12 months later with little to no hope of even getting decent ports.

Seriously I'm going to just stick with my galaxy s3 for another 18 month's...

Oh yeah. I'm definitely a fan, but that falls third on my list when it comes to the console market.

And you're right as that is a very fair question asking why someone should switch. But Iwata's point was that Wii U while being new, having slightly different architecture (an emphasis on using a GPGPU fits), and development just getting going on the hardware is already putting out games equal to consoles that have had development optimized since their launch.

And I think you're over selling what the other consoles will be capable of based on saying it has little to no hope of getting decent ports.

And common sense would say you don't make conclusions on unfinished launch titles.

Iwata doesn't really say anything other than that it will match the other systems. The takeaway from that, I think, isn't that the entire system is equally as fast. Even if we presume that the CPU is only on par, it doesn't mean that the GPU couldn't be significantly faster. Which would actually surprise me given that the average laptop can manage much greater performance with far less volume.

Unless you all are focusing strictly on the AC3 part, I don't see how this conclusion is being drawn.

I've seen the AC III youtube video, with minimum effort the devs put a map and weapon switching on the gamepad's screen. that's convincing for me.
I mean, if you look at an x360, it's just like an updated PS2 for me, but here we have a new input/output ability which makes the experience more PC-like.

you can touch an icon, no more lame bindings to d-pad or triggers, no need for a two-weapon limit. no need for scrolling between giant text menu options, with a d-pad or joystick, you now have a point-and-click approach to your inventory and game saves.

you will even use an onscreen keyboard rather than select characters with your d-pad, as if you were playing a SNES RPG. it's nice, really! :smile:

the CPU and GPU hardware really is current gen, but I have a feeling that the big edram and increased memory can help with the current problems : lack of AA and low res textures.

I agree with the former and disagree with the latter. Things are continually pointing to the hardware not being "current gen". With the way Nintendo plans out their hardware, there had just been way too many complaints and issues pointing to the CPU the last six months to believe there wasn't a reason behind this. While we can't currently confirm the accuracy of Prophecy's info, it makes too much sense based on the aforementioned issues to believe it's totally false. That would suggest it's more like a lite version of at least PS4 and not a more powerful 360.

 

[Rangers]

no need for a two-weapon limit.

This isnt really a problem either. In the aforementioned Crysis, simply hold down the Y button to bring up a scrollable weapon wheel of sorts.

Press y to switch to next weapon, hold Y to bring up weapon wheel.

might even be faster since once again you dont have to remove focus from main screen.

 

[Strange]

And common sense would say you don't make conclusions on unfinished launch titles.

Common sense (and experience) tells me that unfinished launch titles only six months away from the release date are a good indicator of what's to come. I havn't really seen any title that has been running drastically different in one years time.

I tend to have faith in Ubisoft's programmers to have finished the bulk (and the most significant parts) of the optimimization already. Further optimization within the next few months should be mostly tweaks instead of "game-changing" (pun intended) breakthroughs.

Wuu's AC3 performance is simply disappointing, to say the least.
I can stomache 720p, as it may be a simple design choice, coupled with the wiiu gamepad dispay (if we just count the pixels the gamepad should add about 50% more pixels for fill in 720p).
But no AA? that's another issue.

 

[Strange]

This isnt really a problem either. In the aforementioned Crysis, simply hold down the Y button to bring up a scrollable weapon wheel of sorts.

Press y to switch to next weapon, hold Y to bring up weapon wheel.

might even be faster since once again you dont have to remove focus from main screen.

AC2:R already did that if I recall correctly.
And I agree that removing focus from the main screen serves more of a distraction than utility. Having experience from Monster Hunter 3 G on 3DS, the lower screen hardly ever served as information. I'd much rather stuff simply being in the main game UI so I can monitor everything without moving my eyeballs much. Eyeballs have a very small area in which it can see clearly at any given time. Having to move that area across a long distance just to see some information is a hassle to say the least



As a matter of fact, the wiiu gamepad acting as an information portal seems more of a "devolution" instead of an evolution, if you really think about it.

If we take the example to cars, car manufacturers (and GPS manufacturers) are clearly steadily moving toward HUD. Military aircraft also try to have all critical information right infront of the pilot at all times. Having to take your eyes off what you're supposed to be focused on for secondary information is a big nono for usability.

 

[bgassassin]

Common sense (and experience) tells me that unfinished launch titles only six months away from the release date are a good indicator of what's to come. I havn't really seen any title that has been running drastically different in one years time.

I tend to have faith in Ubisoft's programmers to have finished the bulk (and the most significant parts) of the optimimization already. Further optimization within the next few months should be mostly tweaks instead of "game-changing" (pun intended) breakthroughs.

Wuu's AC3 performance is simply disappointing, to say the least.
I can stomache 720p, as it may be a simple design choice, coupled with the wiiu gamepad dispay (if we just count the pixels the gamepad should add about 50% more pixels for fill in 720p).
But no AA? that's another issue.

There were a decent amount of titles missing AA. No point really in focusing on AC3 or that issue. The majority of those games should see some level of AA added before launch.

And why bring up "game-changing" breakthroughs? Who would even expect something like that at this point in time? Heck I already agreed with ERP not that long ago in this thread that I don't see that happening for Wii U during any point of time. To expect something "game-changing" would be expecting something not even done on PC hardware that would lead to others copying.

The first paragraph is contradictory IMO. You make six months sound short and one year seem like forever. And considering they just got the final kits out in the last month, I don't know what people expected sense we all know Wii U won't be on par with PS4 or Xbox 3 in raw power. And with the way launch titles are looking at this point Wii U will more than likely be a "tweener" console.

 

[Kaotik]

bgassassin, you mean there was decent amount of e3 builds missing AA, that doesn't tell anything about final products yet

 

[french toast]

Yes your right on the money, and that's the problem..the cpu and gpu are current gen..current gen is 7 years old, and also cheaper....hell even a kinect bundle is cheaper and that's wayy more advanced.

How do you figure it will take 2-3 years to find out if it's up to scratch? You will know straight away when you look at the screen and realise it matches up rather nicely with a Sony vita.

Yes the gpu is likely to be more modern than xenos or rsx, but they are pushing 7years, and performance will be only about the same....hell by the time the console releases it may be even less advanced than high end mobile gpus....even if performance will be better.

 

[french toast]

I just want to correct something here. You can play against someone in the same room as you. Using a Classic Controller or Wii-mote.

Ha where is the fun in that? A controller 'pic-a-mix'...That's utterly stupid!....they make the excuse that performance will be taking a low priority to the controller, that a great deal of their budget went into this controller...but lets face it the budget must have been pretty small.

No ability to use 2-4 of them at launch, or any more than 2 in its entire future...that's the consoles main selling point! Ffs.

The wuu is quite clearly designed for the casual/child like audience..just like the wii, but unlike the wii there is nothing revolutionary about the controller, and you can't invite you mates round for fun to use the gimmick...you can't sell the console for the hardcore audience for very obvious reasons??

To me nintendo has not moved with the times, the wuu is really a giant nintendo ds...resistive low resolution lower screen with the main display above, at the expense of graphics.

The glaring difference being this isn't 2003 anymore.

 

[SedentaryJourney]

I don't know what people expected sense we all know Wii U won't be on par with PS4 or Xbox 3 in raw power. And with the way launch titles are looking at this point Wii U will more than likely be a "tweener" console.

Will it? You'd think with the rumoured specs running ports at 720p with 4x MSAA shouldn't be a problem.

Those expecting the Wii U to be capable of next-gen ports should probably temper their expectations as that's looking impractical based on what we've been shown. I'm not even convinced it will outperform PS360 significantly enough to be considered anything but another current gen console.

How do you figure it will take 2-3 years to find out if it's up to scratch? You will know straight away when you look at the screen and realise it matches up rather nicely with a Sony vita.

Huh?

 

[Kaotik]

Yes your right on the money, and that's the problem..the cpu and gpu are current gen..current gen is 7 years old, and also cheaper....hell even a kinect bundle is cheaper and that's wayy more advanced.

How do you figure it will take 2-3 years to find out if it's up to scratch? You will know straight away when you look at the screen and realise it matches up rather nicely with a Sony vita.

Yes the gpu is likely to be more modern than xenos or rsx, but they are pushing 7years, and performance will be only about the same....hell by the time the console releases it may be even less advanced than high end mobile gpus....even if performance will be better.

You don't have anything to base your assumptions on really, the E3 demos don't reflect necessarily the final products in terms of AA (or even resolution), and the GPU could be a lot beefier.

The GPU is at minimum SM4.1, and could be 5.0, and coming this year, there's no chance "mobile gpu's" (by which you must refer to adreno, sgx and the like) are more advanced by then.

The CPU is reportedly OoOE, and based on a lot, lot newer architecture than the PS360 CPUs are.

Your claim that it's "current gen" is just ridicilous, even Sony's rep doesn't think it's "current gen" but rather "generation of it's own [ahead of current generation, short of next]"

 

[french toast]

Well I'm sorry but visuals...ie what the end user will see will be current gen. Everything I have seen so far points to that.

Maybe my reference to mobile gpus was going over the top, but current gen it most certainly will be- bar a miracle.

 

[Kaotik]

Well I'm sorry but visuals...ie what the end user will see will be current gen. Everything I have seen so far points to that.

Maybe my reference to mobile gpus was going over the top, but current gen it most certainly will be- bar a miracle.

You've seen e3 builds, not final games, and those are unfinished builts of earliest games, go compare earliest ps360 games to current ones, there's huge gap between those.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You've seen e3 builds, not final games, and those are unfinished builts of earliest games, go compare earliest ps360 games to current ones, there's huge gap between those.

Go compare earliest PS360 games to the previous generation and they were a world more advanced.

 

[french toast]

Yes but that is a silly argument, what you should be comparing is the difference between xbox 1 and xbox 360, which was night and day despite being only 4 years and despite the new architecture being nothing like what had been before....that doesn't apply to wuu which developers will be able to utilise 70% of the performance of the system straight out of the box, in fact there are loads of pc games that are unable to run on wuu where as that wasn't the case with most new high end consoles.

A better comparison to make would be the difference between plastation 1 and playstation 2.....again massive improvement even on launch day.....there shouldn't be any wait to get far far better graphics omit of a new console over ancient 7 year old hardware.

Seriously wake up.

 

[bgassassin]

bgassassin, you mean there was decent amount of e3 builds missing AA, that doesn't tell anything about final products yet

Potayto, potahto.

Will it? You'd think with the rumoured specs running ports at 720p with 4x MSAA shouldn't be a problem.

Those expecting the Wii U to be capable of next-gen ports should probably temper their expectations as that's looking impractical based on what we've been shown. I'm not even convinced it will outperform PS360 significantly enough to be considered anything but another current gen console.

Those expecting some kind of "massive" difference with the next gen consoles should do the same. Especially when an "underclocked Pitcairn" is setting up to be the best GPU in a console next gen. (Though I like PS4's hardware so far.)

Go compare earliest PS360 games to the previous generation and they were a world more advanced.

Yes but that is a silly argument, what you should be comparing is the difference between xbox 1 and xbox 360, which was night and day despite being only 4 years and despite the new architecture being nothing like what had been before....that doesn't apply to wuu which developers will be able to utilise 70% of the performance of the system straight out of the box, in fact there are loads of pc games that are unable to run on wuu where as that wasn't the case with most new high end consoles.

A better comparison to make would be the difference between plastation 1 and playstation 2.....again massive improvement even on launch day.....there shouldn't be any wait to get far far better graphics omit of a new console over ancient 7 year old hardware.

Seriously wake up.

But comparing it to those types of leaps make no sense when everyone knows Wii U is not a generational leap over PS360. People are treating this like a "black/white" issue when it's going to be very grey.

 

[Rangers]

Those expecting some kind of "massive" difference with the next gen consoles should do the same. Especially when an "underclocked Pitcairn" is setting up to be the best GPU in a console next gen. (Though I like PS4's hardware so far.)

that gpu should be (at least) 10x current gen (7x flops, 9x+ transistors, plus a fudge factor for being so much more advanced/efficient per flop), where wii u looks 1x-1.5x current gen.

not a lot of gray area there.

 

[french toast]

^^agreed^^

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But comparing it to those types of leaps make no sense when everyone knows Wii U is not a generational leap over PS360.

Except not everyone knows that, and some are still hoping that Wuu is going to be far better.

I guess this another daft semantics debate where people are reading different meanings into the unqualified term 'generation'. Obviously the flexibility of the hardware with SM4+ is a generation ahead of PS360 and should enable effects/techniques not present in PS360 games, but in terms of power, game complexity, and what games Wuu'll run, it's looking to be positioned alongside this gen. If it had enough grunt to match a proper next-gen (assuming Sony and MS release proper 8-10x+ power consoles) then we'd be seeing far better visuals than we are seeing.

If we have a timeline of the major hardware progressions in the console space, with peaks in the year or two spanning new technology launches (PS1+N64, PS2+XB, PS3+XB360, PS4+XB3), the hardware in Wii was aligned with the hardware of the previous generation. Wuu is looking to be something like this gen hardware in terms of performance (depending on caveats I've mentioned earlier).

So keeping to the topic of the Wii U GPU, soeone can hazard a guess as its make-up based on a contemporary part with approximately PS360 (x1,5, 2?) performance. We know it's not an order of magnitude more powerful, which is a layman's definition of next-gen.

 

[Rodéric]

We know it's not an order of magnitude more powerful, which is a layman's definition of next-gen.

You may not have any next gen systems before 7 years then.