Wii U hardware discussion and investigation *rename

[Kaotik]

Sorry but Wii third party support is not really as great as Xbox 360 and PS3 third party support.

I'm fully aware of this. It however has nothing to do with Wii U 3rd party support, and even if it would be just 1 game, that one game could be the only game some people ever want to play.
When it comes to games, it's all a matter of taste. If you like PS360 3rd party games better, good for you. If your neighbour likes Wii 3rd party games better, good for him/her.

Also, quantity != quality (and no, I'm not saying Wii 3rd party games are better quality, just general note)

They made demos for Wii U hardware but they made games for Wii hardware? lol...

They started game development most likely on Wii hardware, short demos with limited interactivity are a lot, lot shorter project to do, which allowed Nintendo to cook up couple quick demos for E3 on actual Wii U (though not final) hardware.
Finalizing graphics should be pretty much the last thing you do (aside from optimizations of course) on a game.

 

[lwill]

They started game development most likely on Wii hardware, short demos with limited interactivity are a lot, lot shorter project to do, which allowed Nintendo to cook up couple quick demos for E3 on actual Wii U (though not final) hardware.
Finalizing graphics should be pretty much the last thing you do (aside from optimizations of course) on a game.

Agreed.

It should also be noticed that Nintendo, for better or worse, decided to only announce and show launch window titles during E3 2012. There are even more games not announced within that window if we go by EA and Activision's statements. The latter wave of games should show a bit more of Wii U's power, but time will tell.

 

[Rangers]

They're not hiding it though. It's just not a relevant value. Loko at this random listing in Amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Emotion-Pet...f=sr_1_2?s=kids&ie=UTF8&qid=1339591629&sr=1-2

There's no mention of its tech specs or sensor types used. And why should there be? Does it work? Yes. That's all the end user cares about. No-one buys a Hasbro cuddly toy over a Disney cuddly toy by comparing specs. By that same token, what's in the box in any console is immaterial when it's what's on the outside that matters. Who cares is PS3 one iggleflop or three iggleflops as long as its games look good and play well? Now as as consoles also straddle the computer/electronics business, where technical specifications are a deciding factor between devices that serve the same purpose (two devices of the same price with one offering better specs), then there is interest in specs (often misplaced, such as buying cameras on megapixels and forgoing image quality caused by lens). But a toy manufacturer isn't hiding their specs if they are selling a product, especially a unique one. Nintendo never released Wii specs AFAIK and that didn't affect the purchasing habits of those who wanted the toy they were offering. The only people who care enough about the specs of Wuu will never buy it if it doesn't look good enough, no matter what the specs. So why bother?

Depends on the market. Phones OTOH are all about spec...I think consoles are closer to phones or TV's than cuddle toys...

I agree "iggleflops" are somewhat irrelevant, but what the box can put on the screen isn't (it couldn't be more fundamental to the machine's use, interactive graphics), which is probably related to iggleflops.

Obviously Nintendo doesn't want to release specs because some people will go "Wtf, only 1 iggleflops? This other machine has 50 iggleflops what a rip Nintendo!". It makes them look bad.

Yes Nintendo marketed the Wii more like a toy I guess, but I predict it will not work for Wii U.

 

[XpiderMX]

I'm fully aware of this. It however has nothing to do with Wii U 3rd party support, and even if it would be just 1 game, that one game could be the only game some people ever want to play.
When it comes to games, it's all a matter of taste. If you like PS360 3rd party games better, good for you. If your neighbour likes Wii 3rd party games better, good for him/her.

Also, quantity != quality (and no, I'm not saying Wii 3rd party games are better quality, just general note)

Yes, I like some third party Wii games, but I will not pay $250-$300 for some games. You're talking like a Nintendo fan (not fanboy), that's good for people that like a lot the Nintendo games, they have all those first party games and some third party games, but people like me want both, great first party games and good third party support. And no, game ports from current gen is not "great third party support". I'll wait until the launch.

They started game development most likely on Wii hardware, short demos with limited interactivity are a lot, lot shorter project to do, which allowed Nintendo to cook up couple quick demos for E3 on actual Wii U (though not final) hardware.
Finalizing graphics should be pretty much the last thing you do (aside from optimizations of course) on a game.

Kameo and Perfect Dark Zero began like Xbox games, and they looked like a real step forward original Xbox games.

 

[Rangers]

For me the game that really showed next gen at 360 launch was PGR3. I remember flipping to side view of the car back and forth rapidly while racing down the track, techno pumping in the background, truly pretty amazed.

So there was one game that showed it.

 

[babybumb]

So that could be a good reason why you're not noticing any immediate leap.

Most games look very average accross the board with similar power hardware. Only when you throw a ton of money to tech and talent will you see a difference. There is standard UE3 and then there is Gears of War. Who will do that on Wii U from the ground up? So IMO it has a long way to match best of current-gen first.

For next few years supporting PS3/360 versions seem like much more of an priority than Wii U for financial reasons because of active installed base. We already see this with Watch Dogs. If Wii U were up to par it would reveive similar support to Sony/MS new systems and not prioritized under old consoles.

Wii U COULD have been the next-gen lead platform with decent hardware even under $350 but Nintendo chose controller over this huge opportunity they had:

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/120606qa/05.html

Of course, because we have designed a new hardware system, we are using new technology and we are using new GPUs.But as we have to devote significant costs to the Wii U GamePad, if we were to apply the same level of enhancement that other console manufacturers shoot for to the processing power component, the Wii U would become extremely high in price, and it would not be affordable.　In other words, we think that the way that the various console manufacturers are allocating their budgets to the hardware is different from the way that we allocate our budget to the hardware. Ultimately, we’re looking to maintain a price point for the Wii U that is reasonable in comparison to the value to be offered.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Depends on the market. Phones OTOH are all about spec...I think consoles are closer to phones or TV's than cuddle toys.

Just not in nintendo's eyes, who think they are creating products outside the rules of the CE space. And to be fair they were kinda right with Wii. They picked entirely the wrong hardware, could ahve provided more, could ahve been more competitive, lost interest from gamers due to their poopy specs (once they leaked), but they still did very well with their product. I doubt they can repeat that, but I can see why they still take that approach regards considering their numbers immaterial to their product pitch.

 

[Kaotik]

Yes, I like some third party Wii games, but I will not pay $250-$300 for some games. You're talking like a Nintendo fan (not fanboy), that's good for people that like a lot the Nintendo games, they have all those first party games and some third party games, but people like me want both, great first party games and good third party support. And no, game ports from current gen is not "great third party support". I'll wait until the launch.

I'm not sure how it sounds, but the only consoles I own are PlayStation (1) and SNES, both left to me by ex-gf (or rather, they forgot to take 'em with 'em when they left)

The thing you seem to be ignoring is the fact that not everyone shares your view on what's great first party game or 3rd party game, for one it could be Uncharted & NHL, for someone else Halo & FIFA, for someone else Mario & Rayman etc etc, there's as many tastes for games as there's people, though limited choices on games make it seem like many share the same favourites

Kameo and Perfect Dark Zero began like Xbox games, and they looked like a real step forward original Xbox games.

And have the shown E3 games been released? Have they said somewhere this is how the final game looks?
Exactly - they haven't.

 

[Kaotik]

Most games look very average accross the board with similar power hardware. Only when you throw a ton of money to tech and talent will you see a difference. There is standard UE3 and then there is Gears of War. Who will do that on Wii U from the ground up? So IMO it has a long way to match best of current-gen first.

For next few years supporting PS3/360 versions seem like much more of an priority than Wii U for financial reasons because of active installed base. We already see this with Watch Dogs. If Wii U were up to par it would reveive similar support to Sony/MS new systems and not prioritized under old consoles.

Wii U COULD have been the next-gen lead platform with decent hardware even under $350 but Nintendo chose controller over this huge opportunity they had:

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/120606qa/05.html

Having the beefiest hardware doesn't mean you'll be the lead platform, nor does releasing your console first.
(Also it could still be the "lead platform" if the hardware is good enough, with next XBox & PS having just higher res assets etc, kinda like PC has over many PS360-titles.)

 

[XpiderMX]

The thing you seem to be ignoring is the fact that not everyone shares your view on what's great first party game or 3rd party game, for one it could be Uncharted & NHL, for someone else Halo & FIFA, for someone else Mario & Rayman etc etc, there's as many tastes for games as there's people, though limited choices on games make it seem like many share the same favourites

I am not talking about first party support, I'm talking third party support. How many third party games was released last year for Wii? how many third party games was released last year for Xbox 360 and PS3? a lot. The same this year.

And have the shown E3 games been released? Have they said somewhere this is how the final game looks?
Exactly - they haven't.

Kameo and PGR3 looked great at E3 2005, final version was better, but the E3 demos was really good looking, they don´t look like a "Xbox1" version. What I want is only one game in Wii U that show the "next gen" look, maybe with the final version, but not at E312.

 

[ERP]

Having the beefiest hardware doesn't mean you'll be the lead platform, nor does releasing your console first.
(Also it could still be the "lead platform" if the hardware is good enough, with next XBox & PS having just higher res assets etc, kinda like PC has over many PS360-titles.)

For most 3rd party cross platform games (assuming some degree of parity), the "actual lead platform", as opposed to the one sales forecasts dictate as the "lead platform", is determined by how quickly the developer can iterate and debug issues.

The platform with the faster compiler/linker and more stable/reliable/better featured debugger has a surprisingly large advantage. Because as a developer you want to work with the least possible friction.

 

[Sonic]

Having the beefiest hardware doesn't mean you'll be the lead platform, nor does releasing your console first.
(Also it could still be the "lead platform" if the hardware is good enough, with next XBox & PS having just higher res assets etc, kinda like PC has over many PS360-titles.)

If Wii U is DX11 then sure, but isn't it reported to be DX10.1? It would truly stink for PC gamers if WiiU became lead platform on multi-plat titles especially if the WiiU only has dx10.1. I doubt the system will become lead platform, simply because I think PS4/720 will be similar enough in power that one of those will end up as lead platform. Let's face it, Nintendo could sell boatloads of WiiU's but it might still not matter because of the millions that will be waiting on the next gen machines, not a current-gen extender.

 

[TheD]

For most 3rd party cross platform games (assuming some degree of parity), the "actual lead platform", as opposed to the one sales forecasts dictate as the "lead platform", is determined by how quickly the developer can iterate and debug issues.

The platform with the faster compiler/linker and more stable/reliable/better featured debugger has a surprisingly large advantage. Because as a developer you want to work with the least possible friction.

I am not really sure the Wii U would be the lead platform for any multiplat game with the odd SDK it is meant to be using.

 

[ERP]

I am not really sure the Wii U would be the lead platform for any multiplat game with the odd SDK it is meant to be using.

Sorry for whatever reason I didn't realize the post was in the WiiU thread.
I can't imagine WiiU ever commonly being the lead SKU for a cross platform title.

It simply won't have the market penetration, in the short term, that coupled with platform familiarity would probably be enough to relegate it to marginal updates. And though I haven't used the dev-tools, I doubt at this point they are on par with the other platforms.

 

[Nightz]

For most 3rd party cross platform games (assuming some degree of parity), the "actual lead platform", as opposed to the one sales forecasts dictate as the "lead platform", is determined by how quickly the developer can iterate and debug issues.

The platform with the faster compiler/linker and more stable/reliable/better featured debugger has a surprisingly large advantage. Because as a developer you want to work with the least possible friction.

Doesn't bode well for Nintendo then. I've been told that they are not really setup as a company to support 3rd parties. And haven't invested as much as Microsoft and Sony in great tools and support structures for developers.

Apparently the Wii IDE compiler/debugger was not well maintained (not frequently updated) and not as good as XDK, the APIs not as good, the kernal/library didn't protect you from stack over flows which could crash the CPU often, the documentation was not good and developer support could be "almost" hostile at times. Making coding difficult compared to other platforms.

With Wii U they will need to invest heavily in a solid set of developer tools to be competitive.

 

[lwill]

Doesn't bode well for Nintendo then. I've been told that they are not really setup as a company to support 3rd parties. And haven't invested as much as Microsoft and Sony in great tools and support structures for developers.

Apparently the Wii IDE compiler/debugger was not well maintained (not frequently updated) and not as good as XDK, the APIs not as good, the kernal/library didn't protect you from stack over flows which could crash the CPU often, the documentation was not good and developer support could be "almost" hostile at times. Making coding difficult compared to other platforms.

With Wii U they will need to invest heavily in a solid set of developer tools to be competitive.

Wii U's IDE is apparently MULTI. It is not that familiar to most game devs, but MULTI is apparently known for efficiency.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Iwata says Wuu is about PS360 level performance:

One area Nintendo are looking to be more competitive with Microsoft and Sony with the Wii U is in terms of third-party support. The Wii struggled with a dearth of games from other publishers, as they abandoned the Wii in favour of the more powerful consoles. "In terms of graphical capability, there was a sheer difference between the Wii and the other two devices, most notably between SD and HD," says Iwata. "We decided to differentiate the Wii not with graphics but with motion control. We believed that motion control was unique and would create more attraction rather than trying to make the Wii HD. On the other hand, we had lost the third-party support when they were focussing on multi-platform titles."

Iwata is determined their new console will not suffer a similar fate. "In the case of the Wii U, we have decided to make it so that it is capable of doing whatever the other two consoles can do, so games are easily portable," says Iwata. "Even though the other machines are six years old, they have the advantage now because developers are capable of maximising the graphic capabilities, while with the new machine they will have to start from scratch to create the most capable graphics. So the Wii U has that room for improvement."

"So in terms of performance, we don't see any issues for third-parties to be willing to make their software available. As we expand the install-base of the Wii U, I see greater opportunities for the third-parties to be able to provide the Wii U with quality software titles. And as well as the third-party multi-platform titles, we will have publishers making exclusive Wii U titles."

It all sounds like a foolproof plan. However, there is the threat of new hardware from Sony and Microsoft coming along and creating the same problem. Iwata doesn't see this being the case. "My impression is that the things that happened with Wii v 360 or Wii v PS3 won't happen again," he says. "If they decide to increase the spec numbers, will the consumers be able to realise the difference enough so that they can understand it's much superior to today's machine? And also, if they beef up the processing power, that simply means much more work for software developers to take advantage of those spec numbers. So I have to ask the question if that type of differentiation really makes sense. But I think further arguments must wait until probably next year, when they have finalised and disclosed whatever they are thinking about for the next generation of consoles."

There's a lengthy nterview here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/video-games/e3/9328561/Satoru-Iwata-interview.html#

And:

In typical Nintendo fashion, however, Iwata doesn't see what other companies are doing as a threat. "I never think in terms of how we can compete against the other companies, rather our primary focus is to make consumers feel the uniqueness and attractiveness of our products," he says. "So any improvements in graphics are just a portion of what we want people to enjoy from Nintendo. More importantly, I want people to say Nintendo are offering unique experiences."

 

[mikiex]

For most 3rd party cross platform games (assuming some degree of parity), the "actual lead platform", as opposed to the one sales forecasts dictate as the "lead platform", is determined by how quickly the developer can iterate and debug issues.

The platform with the faster compiler/linker and more stable/reliable/better featured debugger has a surprisingly large advantage. Because as a developer you want to work with the least possible friction.

Its never been a simple as which has the best tools as to how the lead platform is chosen in my experience. Often you choose a weaker platform in terms of performance, Though in recent times what actual platform we are leading on has become more blurred.

 

[GuestLV]

GPU must be DX11 class with decent speed to be competitive,or WII U will go on the same road as Wii, approved by UE4 and SE Agni Philosophy

 

[DaSorcerer]

Iwata says Wuu is about PS360 level performance:

There's a lengthy nterview here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/video-games/e3/9328561/Satoru-Iwata-interview.html#

And:

I think you're jumping to conclusions, he doesn't imply that its only capable of PS360 level performance.