Earthquake/Tsunami in Japan

From windenergy.org.nz
Over the span of a year, New Zealand wind farms generate at an average of about 40% of their rated output - this figure is also referred as “capacity factor”.

There is a difference betwen windy days and windy days. Kinetic energy of the air is the force that pushes the rotor blades. Which means that the possible energy gained from wind speeds of 10 m/s is 56.25% more than from 8 m/s.
20% drop in wind speeds ressult in more than 50% energy decrease. :!:
 
yes 40% is very high world wide. Though the figure is now ~45% (better tech)
also WRT windspeed what you say is true in theory, but in reality because of how the turbines work, once windspeed hits a certain level, the faster the wind blows doesnt mean theres more electricity being generated
eg the newest windfarm in nz operates at 100% capacity with windspeed 49-90km/hr
 
yes 40% is very high world wide. Though the figure is now ~45% (better tech)
also WRT windspeed what you say is true in theory, but in reality because of how the turbines work, once windspeed hits a certain level, the faster the wind blows doesnt mean theres more electricity being generated
eg the newest windfarm in nz operates at 100% capacity with windspeed 49-90km/hr

Isn't that because they simply cannot get more energy from the wind, so therefore that represents a possible inefficiency in high winds because they are forced to adjust the angle of attack of the blades due to mechanical considerations?

P.S.

Im posting naked.
 
Just compare 1:25 and 3:15 :oops: ... I can only guess how numbed by shock the guy filming this must have been. Also very sad to think how many perished that day and are still missing or will never be found.
 
Considering pretty much everything except the building he's standing in and the one in front of him is getting swept away by the raging waters it's not hard to imagine he might be expecting to die any second. Most unpleasant, I must say...
 
Considering pretty much everything except the building he's standing in and the one in front of him is getting swept away by the raging waters it's not hard to imagine he might be expecting to die any second. Most unpleasant, I must say...

Actually, that was EXACTLY the same though that went through my head when I saw this video linked from another site I frequent. I cannot begin to fathom what would be going through my head in the face of all that water continually swelling and destroying everything I can see.

Well, I can imagine doing the FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU meme-face :eek:
 
Considering pretty much everything except the building he's standing in and the one in front of him is getting swept away by the raging waters it's not hard to imagine he might be expecting to die any second. Most unpleasant, I must say...

Probably not though - the building looks solid enough. Particularly these taller buildings tend to stand. I've seen a similar video to this one on the BBC, but with a lot of people surrounding the camera including women crying and worrying, possibly even of the same village but from a flat on the other side, and you could see very small in the corner people trying to get sick people from the hospital right up until the water started, and if you look carefully you can see some getting swept away. Horrifying.
 
Newly released TEPCO data provides evidence of periodic chain reaction at Fukushima Unit 1

Recent press reports have discussed the possibility that Fukushima Unit 1 may be having a nuclear chain reaction. New data released by TEPCO indicates that even though Fukushima Unit 1 was shut down during the March 11 earthquake, it appears to have "gone critical" again without human intervention. The detection by TEPCO of short-lived radioactive isotopes substantiates the existence of this inadvertent criticality.
 
It seems to me that the determination of whether or not the unit is undergoing a chain reaction would be determined most easily by the rate of change of temperature over time of the reactor (or, equivalently, by the rate of evaporation of the sea water).

I don't understand how he thinks that the water can be causing a chain reaction, however. That makes zero sense whatsoever to me.
 
It seems to me that the determination of whether or not the unit is undergoing a chain reaction would be determined most easily by the rate of change of temperature over time of the reactor (or, equivalently, by the rate of evaporation of the sea water).

I don't understand how he thinks that the water can be causing a chain reaction, however. That makes zero sense whatsoever to me.

The water moderates the neutrons. The water in BWRs and PWRs during normal operation is dual purpose: Coolant and a neutron moderator.

The damaged core power output would reach a steady state, where the steam formed displaces water, stops moderation and thus puts an upper limit to power output. Power output would be a fraction of normal production.

I don't know if it's likely, TEPCO added boric acid to all the water injected, including the sea water.

Cheers
 
They do supply this info from NZ companies

eg the largest power generating company in NZ. Wind was producing power 96.0% of the time (compared to hydro at 91.3%)
I doubt nuclear will match that uptime?
Wind was not producing steady power 96% of the time, just non-zero. If you apply the same standard, then system-wide nuclear, coal, hydro etc all produce power 100% of the time.

I've shown you NZ data before. Even there, system-wide wind output varies dramatically. The only reason wind works in NZ is that your geography gives you gobs and gobs of hydro storage. Only a tiny fraction of the rest of mankind has that luxury.

On a pure per KWH cost basis wind power is competitive. The first phase of the London array with 175 3.6KW turbines will produce at a cost of 8-8.5 pennies / KWH. The average price of electricity in the UK is 10-11 pennies / KWH.

If the London array had been on-shore, construction cost would be halved, but electricity production would be lower too, so it would still cost 6-6.5 pennies/KWH.
You're right about storage, although I think you underestimate the magnitude of the problem. There's a reason why nuclear and coal plants just burn away excess capacity energy at night without anyone buying it - storage is so expensive that not even free electricity is worth storing.

The "pure KWH basis" that you and other enviro groups use is completely irrelevant, because without that low cost storage, every kWh of wind used for demand actually increases the net cost per kWh of non-wind electricity production since other forms of generation have to reduce capacity factor to give wind farms business. You're not saving 10-11p per kWh by replacing it with 8p per kWh wind, you're only saving the fuel cost, which is ~0 for nuclear and almost zero for coal (because cycling that often is costly for coal plants). Basically, you only save fuel cost for natural gas plants while wind is blowing, so the true cost of wind depends on how much of your generation is with gas turbines.

Say you had 10GW daytime peak demand. You build 7GW of nuclear/coal baseline at 8c/kWh. You also build 3GW of natural gas to handle the daytime peak, so it runs at maybe 50% CF (i.e. it's turned off at night), and costs 20c/kWh. On average, 1.5 GWe (17.6%) of your electricity comes from natural gas, and overall average cost is (7GW * 8 + 1.5GW * 20) / (8.5GW) = 10.1c/kWh.

Now you decide to build 3GW of wind as well, and can get 30% CF from it if you use everything it generates, which averages to 8c/kWh. However, it only reduces your natural gas plant consumption during the day; moreover, reducing its output by 30% while retaining its capacity raises its levelized cost to 23c/kWh. So now electricity cost is:

(7GW * 8 + 0.9GW * 23 + 3GW * 40% * 8) / (8.5 GW) = 10.3c/kWh

So you can pretend that wind is generating 1.2/8.5 = 14% of your electricity, but in reality it's only displaced 7% (and thus effectively costs 16c/kWh) because the other half is wasted at night. If you want to make use of that, you can reduce your baseline to 4GW and increase the natural gas to 6GW, but now your cost of electricity goes over 12c/kWh.
Wind power is halving power production cost every 15 years. Even if the compressed air/adiabatic heat stores don't pan out, in 15 years time it will be economically feasible to produce syn-gas (hydrogen or ammonia), and use that for power generation when it isn't windy.
Wind power costs have flattened and even risen in recent years:
http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/5354

Unless something revolutionary comes up, like high altitude wind, wind is not going to get much cheaper. It will always need roughly the same amount of materials as today.
 
I bet TEPCO would swap their cheap nuclear plant right now for some expensive wind turbines considering the nuclear plant has made them lose 80% of their share value, with threat of nationalisation and a multi billion dollar compensation payout likely in the future.

Try and pop that into your equations Mintmaster and see what value you come up with. That's the problem with nuclear, a lot of costs are not known, such as total decommissioning or accident provision.

This one nuclear plant has managed to screw the 4th biggest power supplier in the world.

You'll never get a TEPCO or a BP with an expensive wind farm, so it is low risk.
 
The "pure KWH basis" that you and other enviro groups use is completely irrelevant, because without that low cost storage, every kWh of wind used for demand actually increases the net cost per kWh of non-wind electricity production since other forms of generation have to reduce capacity factor to give wind farms business. You're not saving 10-11p per kWh by replacing it with 8p per kWh wind

I never claimed price parity. In fact I stressed the point that the inflexible supply mechanics of wind power skews prices, down when there is excess wind power production, and consequently up, when there is lack of wind power production.

As for increasing the cost of fossil fuel powered sources: That is a good thing!

Wind power costs have flattened and even risen in recent years:
http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/5354

From 1987 to 2004 you see a clear halving of price per 15 years trend. Yes, turbine costs increased in 2005-2007, but that was because of a turbine supply glut.

We now have over capacity of wind turbine production capacity and lo' and behold, prices are down.

The world's biggest wind turbine producer, Vestas, announced their new off-shore 7MW turbine last week. It will cost 40% less per installed KWH compared to their existing 3MW turbine. Turbines make up 60% of the cost when building off shore power (London Array phase 1), so that's a 25% reduction of capital costs.

Edit: While interesting, this energy supply discussion is off topic, move to separate thread ?

Cheers
 
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Wind was not producing steady power 96% of the time, just non-zero.
I never said otherwise
If you apply the same standard, then system-wide nuclear, coal, hydro etc all produce power 100% of the time.
incorrect, look at the numbers I gave from hydro 91.3% of time producing power (of course not generating 100% all that 91.3% of time) nuclear has to go offline for a month or so to get refueled every couple of years, plus u have maintenance, i.e. nothing produces @100%. though I think in nz wind farms on average run @ 100% generation for 40-50% of the time (very high on world standards).

because the other half is wasted at night.
Ignoring the BS that electricty is not needed at night, youre still not understanding it. once you have the turbines built the energy is practically free unlike gas/coal/(nuclear even) thus gets used first. this is why wind was generating 96% and hydro 91% (even though hydro is also practically free).
If you know better, feel free to become a shareholder in any one of the electricty companies in nz, perhaps you can convince the economists with these companies that building windfarms is not good sense economically :) hell windpower doesnt even get subsidies in nz
 
Ignoring the BS that electricty is not needed at night, youre still not understanding it. once you have the turbines built the energy is practically free unlike gas/coal/(nuclear even) thus gets used first. this is why wind was generating 96% and hydro 91% (even though hydro is also practically free).
If you know better, feel free to become a shareholder in any one of the electricty companies in nz, perhaps you can convince the economists with these companies that building windfarms is not good sense economically :) hell windpower doesnt even get subsidies in nz

With supply about 4% of New Zealand’s annual electricity generation none realy cares. Lobists and eco-terrorists achieved what they wanted.
 
Running costs averages about 1% of total lifetime cost per year. 80-85% of cost is up front, - building the damn things.

Cheers

That's not what I was quoted by my friend in the industry, but if you have a link to back that up. Show it.
 
That's not what I was quoted by my friend in the industry, but if you have a link to back that up. Show it.

Here, numbers vary from 15% to 35% of levelised cost over the lifetime of a turbine. It's evident older and smaller turbines has high O&M.

Cheers
 
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