NathansFortune
Regular
Sony's Next Generation Portable unveiling - PSP2 in disguise
- Thread starter Farid
- Start date
I like that the analog is more like sticks instead of nubs now.
I also like the multi-touch pad concept. At first it seems pretty foreign, but I think it'll actually be good for situations where you have consistent visual feedback of what's happening on the screen, like moving something. For the usual style touchscreen stuff, the front touch will work fine. But I'm glad that an alternative to this is offered because this way it doesn't obstruct the screen and it doesn't get as much fingerprints and scratches on it.
But like others I think they shouldn't have put four Cortex-A9 cores on it. This will look good in marketing but in practice will be hard to realize the full potential of. The overall utilization beyond two cores will probably be low, which I suppose is just as well from a power utilization point of view. But I think I would have preferred two CPU cores and MP6 or MP8 for the GPU.
I wouldn't be that surprised if they went ahead and equipped some but not all of them with NEON. This would work pretty decently for games. I don't think there'll be any kind of additional VFPU, because it seems like something they would have mentioned.
Having iPhone 4-like resolution on an OLED is very intriguing. I just hope that they don't have problems with defects down the road.
I don't expect the OS to be Android related, but if it is I hope that there'll be a different setup for games. Gaming platforms have typically enjoyed a pretty low level interface to important hardware and I would hate to see something like this obstructed by Android. In fact, having a thinner driver interface/customized API with better performance and more features would help PSP2 stand out over other SGX devices.
One thing I'm wondering is if the battery is now non-removable, since it would be behind the back touch pad. And of course, I wonder how large of a battery they can really put in there.
At any rate, this is a huge win for IMG, almost as big as iPhone has been; iPhones will sell a lot more, but PSP2 will be a better demonstration of higher end mobile GPU capability. I wonder what this will be like compared to consoles. At 28nm the SGX543MP4 could clock at say, 500+MHz. It'll have 16 vec4 FPUs, 8 TMUs, and 8 ROPs.. this isn't really at the same level of the home consoles but it's getting there. MP8 may have put it at about the same level.
I also like the multi-touch pad concept. At first it seems pretty foreign, but I think it'll actually be good for situations where you have consistent visual feedback of what's happening on the screen, like moving something. For the usual style touchscreen stuff, the front touch will work fine. But I'm glad that an alternative to this is offered because this way it doesn't obstruct the screen and it doesn't get as much fingerprints and scratches on it.
But like others I think they shouldn't have put four Cortex-A9 cores on it. This will look good in marketing but in practice will be hard to realize the full potential of. The overall utilization beyond two cores will probably be low, which I suppose is just as well from a power utilization point of view. But I think I would have preferred two CPU cores and MP6 or MP8 for the GPU.
I wouldn't be that surprised if they went ahead and equipped some but not all of them with NEON. This would work pretty decently for games. I don't think there'll be any kind of additional VFPU, because it seems like something they would have mentioned.
Having iPhone 4-like resolution on an OLED is very intriguing. I just hope that they don't have problems with defects down the road.
I don't expect the OS to be Android related, but if it is I hope that there'll be a different setup for games. Gaming platforms have typically enjoyed a pretty low level interface to important hardware and I would hate to see something like this obstructed by Android. In fact, having a thinner driver interface/customized API with better performance and more features would help PSP2 stand out over other SGX devices.
One thing I'm wondering is if the battery is now non-removable, since it would be behind the back touch pad. And of course, I wonder how large of a battery they can really put in there.
At any rate, this is a huge win for IMG, almost as big as iPhone has been; iPhones will sell a lot more, but PSP2 will be a better demonstration of higher end mobile GPU capability. I wonder what this will be like compared to consoles. At 28nm the SGX543MP4 could clock at say, 500+MHz. It'll have 16 vec4 FPUs, 8 TMUs, and 8 ROPs.. this isn't really at the same level of the home consoles but it's getting there. MP8 may have put it at about the same level.
One thing I've got no info about is memory. I'd expect 512MB of LPDDR2 with a 64-bit memory bus with Package-on-Package stacking on a 12x12 or 14x14 application processor, but that's just a guess.
It's true that eventually scaling will just hit into too many problems to be both cost and power effective even if it was still theoretically possible (and one day it won't be with anything resembling the traditional model but we're not there yet). At that point either a completely new paradigm will pick up, or things will slow down slightly and focus more on reducing both cost and power for existing processes and combine chips vertically with TSV/3D packaging to increase performance. We'll see.
In terms of what this means for the PSP2, I'm not sure what process node they are on. I suspect it's manufactured on 45nm in Japan, and if so there's still plenty of cost/power headroom to gain on 28nm.
Silicon can still scale down a lot, it's just a few key techniques and technologies that are running out of steam. While TSMC's 20nm process still uses immersion litography and a classical transistor structure, 14nm will switch to FinFET transistors and EUV or even e-beam. Those are big changes, but certainly very doable, and combined with High-K Metal Gates should allow for the next two full nodes of scaling (10nm & 7nm) to be more incremental in nature.
It's true that eventually scaling will just hit into too many problems to be both cost and power effective even if it was still theoretically possible (and one day it won't be with anything resembling the traditional model but we're not there yet). At that point either a completely new paradigm will pick up, or things will slow down slightly and focus more on reducing both cost and power for existing processes and combine chips vertically with TSV/3D packaging to increase performance. We'll see.
In terms of what this means for the PSP2, I'm not sure what process node they are on. I suspect it's manufactured on 45nm in Japan, and if so there's still plenty of cost/power headroom to gain on 28nm.
The base SGX543 is clocked at 200 Mhz while a variant of it, as noted by the DF analysis is clocked at 400 Mhz. The "+" sign on the NGP spec sheet suggest that it is either overclocked from the base 200 Mhz or it has been modified/upgraded to suit Sony's need. All this in addition to the lower OS overhead as well as packing a quad-core ARM Cortex A9 (this is important as most upcoming mobile phones are going to be using the A8 version.).
Needless to say, this will be at the forefront of portable gaming for sometime.
Needless to say, this will be at the forefront of portable gaming for sometime.
D
Deleted member 13524
Guest
How about internal storage?
I see no word of an internal mass storage, or support for standardized flash cards.
There must be some kind of mass storage, or Sony will have a hard time selling it as a media player.
I could see an entirely cloud-based storage for a handheld console but only in a 5-10 years timeframe. Certainly not in 2011.
Regarding the quad-and-not-dual Cortex A9 criticism, I think the last 5 years of PCs+ home consoles game development generated a current ecossystem of game developers that should be well capable of taking good advantage of multiple cores.
Furthermore, a quad-A9 could be more capable of handling augmented-reallity games wihout the need for additional fixed-function co-processors.
For example, let's picture a game that uses the camera + imaging processing + gps location + 128 voices positional 3d audio w\reverb effects + 3G data reception + all motion/tactile sensors input + creating a multiplayer server. All this could be hard(er?) to do in a realtime game with a dual A9 instead of a quad.
SoC makers usually end up using lots of dedicated co-processors for these tasks (which is a lot more power-efficient, I assume), but Sony may have ended up taking this route so it can take advantage of the full power of the quad A9s in case it is needed somewhere else.
I do agree that the system could seem a little bit unbalanced regarding CPU\GPU capabilities, but it may have more to do with how much creativity Sony wants the developers to use rather than just trying to make the hardware combination that will provide better graphics.
I see no word of an internal mass storage, or support for standardized flash cards.
There must be some kind of mass storage, or Sony will have a hard time selling it as a media player.
I could see an entirely cloud-based storage for a handheld console but only in a 5-10 years timeframe. Certainly not in 2011.
Regarding the quad-and-not-dual Cortex A9 criticism, I think the last 5 years of PCs+ home consoles game development generated a current ecossystem of game developers that should be well capable of taking good advantage of multiple cores.
Furthermore, a quad-A9 could be more capable of handling augmented-reallity games wihout the need for additional fixed-function co-processors.
For example, let's picture a game that uses the camera + imaging processing + gps location + 128 voices positional 3d audio w\reverb effects + 3G data reception + all motion/tactile sensors input + creating a multiplayer server. All this could be hard(er?) to do in a realtime game with a dual A9 instead of a quad.
SoC makers usually end up using lots of dedicated co-processors for these tasks (which is a lot more power-efficient, I assume), but Sony may have ended up taking this route so it can take advantage of the full power of the quad A9s in case it is needed somewhere else.
I do agree that the system could seem a little bit unbalanced regarding CPU\GPU capabilities, but it may have more to do with how much creativity Sony wants the developers to use rather than just trying to make the hardware combination that will provide better graphics.
Last edited by a moderator:
Glad they kept the overall form factor and dint scale down the display, though the OVAL makes it look extremely fat.
Better analog stick(s) are great, I dont care much about the second one - I more often thought about lacking L2/R2 buttons. I suppose the touchpanel on the back will make up for them.
having an Android backend is great as well (hope I understood that right)
greatly annoyed by the lack of UMD drive, hope there will be a way to transfer the games through wlan or something like that. Hope BC will be feasible at all (outside the PSN-Mini titles).
And I´d like a HDMI port aswell, could double at as as great low power media box with Android apps/games, media playback, bluetooth (Dualshock) compatibility, possibly dlna and whatnot. Might finally get a WLan router is thats the case.
I guess what Im most interested is how Sony will tackle the software side. Need more infos about the capabilities of the OS (unrestricted Android Apps, or just a framework to develop games on Sony and Android?), backwards compatibility (or lack thereof). games were for the biggest part just render demos, Uncharted seems to be a showoff for using all control methods at once (which seems silly to me, just like the forced Sixaxis stuff with PS3 launch games).
IMHO one of PSPs biggest problem was the long initial dry period wheres DS didnt have anything interesting either but did happily play GBA games. Seems stupid to repeat this pattern.
Better analog stick(s) are great, I dont care much about the second one - I more often thought about lacking L2/R2 buttons. I suppose the touchpanel on the back will make up for them.
having an Android backend is great as well (hope I understood that right)
greatly annoyed by the lack of UMD drive, hope there will be a way to transfer the games through wlan or something like that. Hope BC will be feasible at all (outside the PSN-Mini titles).
And I´d like a HDMI port aswell, could double at as as great low power media box with Android apps/games, media playback, bluetooth (Dualshock) compatibility, possibly dlna and whatnot. Might finally get a WLan router is thats the case.
I guess what Im most interested is how Sony will tackle the software side. Need more infos about the capabilities of the OS (unrestricted Android Apps, or just a framework to develop games on Sony and Android?), backwards compatibility (or lack thereof). games were for the biggest part just render demos, Uncharted seems to be a showoff for using all control methods at once (which seems silly to me, just like the forced Sixaxis stuff with PS3 launch games).
IMHO one of PSPs biggest problem was the long initial dry period wheres DS didnt have anything interesting either but did happily play GBA games. Seems stupid to repeat this pattern.
For a device such as the PSP2, how much can actually be saved by stepping down a process node on the SoC? It's going to be a very expensive chip of it's kind, but on the other hand, it is already on SoC level, and the other components are likely to be responsible for a fair part of the overall cost - the screen most obviously. I just don't know enough of how the costs of the PSP2 would break down to make any kind of statement with authority, but it seems to me that while you can obviously make some economic savings on die area, there is no way that it can compare to condensing several chips into one as in desktop console space, where you save not only on silicon mm2 but far more importantly in packaging, PCB and cooling as well. Add that built-in screen to the comparison, and the possible savings due to lithography look relatively modest.
That's one of the question I forgot to ask in the OP, good point.
I think they didn't talk about internal storage yet because it's going to be one of the differentiation point between the inevitable different SKUs. I expect the low end SKU to sport something like 8GB for $299.
Also folks, I opened a new thread in the Console Forum for all the conjecture business talk. http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=59429
There wasn't a big smart phone gaming (and other entertainment apps.) market back then.
At the time, the PSP featured a screen at a price which couldn't be easily matched, not to mention the broadband engine in it.
Now, we may be seeing the growth of a tablet market. You won't get bigger OLED screens in tablets that soon. But performance-wise, it seems tablet SOCs will catch up and pass the performance of this NGP thing in a couple of years.
We don't know the price of the thing. With 3G, at least in the US, you may have to sign a data contract.
If they can get it under $350 without a contract, they could win sales from tablets. But if the price is comparable to tablets (and why wouldn't it be, given the hardware), then people will have to choose between a game-centric tablet/PMP and tablets which aren't as good for games but may be stronger for other media (HDMI output, more photo and video apps., etc.).
I'd rather play immersive, detailed games like Uncharted on a PS3 (but if I commuted on trains or flew a lot, I might think differently). Where this could be interesting is if in addition to games you can't get on smart phones/tablets, you got the general mobile apps. that are available on those other devices.
For instance, instead of buying a GPS, if they had GPS apps. for this NGP along with car cradles and such, it would make the device more attractive. It doesn't have to have as many apps. as iOS or Android but cover all the categories, like being able to your banking, things like Evernote and a modern browser.
Ok. did know that and dont blame Sony for going flash.It will use some kind of a flash memory card for games. At least faster loading times.(and silent unlike the UMD)
Still I`d like to know if there will be a way to push my UMDs onto the new console.
D
Deleted member 13524
Guest
Realtime emulation of the PSP hardware wasn't mentioned in the presentation.
Given that Sony wasn't able\sufficiently-interested in building a PS2 emulator for the PS3 (the first-gens had to pack the entire PS2 hardware into the PS3 for compatibility), I doubt they'll go that extra mile for the NGP->PSP.
Specially after seeing how they didn't care for UMD ports with the PSP-Go, and didn't even worry about getting many of the best-selling UMD games in the PSN store (leading the PSP-Go to an early sales death, even more than the initial high price).
Backwards compatibility isn't something Sony has put lots of investment in, unfortunately.
Now for the tough speculation part:
Does anyone here think the console has an internal heatsink?
So "PlayStation®Suite" is a framework to target Android and PSP2, but building 2 seperate binaries?
I know the PSP2 (UI + native stuff) is not running on Android, but I thought about an Android runtime to tap into the existing Android marketplace.
There, thats 4 times Android in 2 sentences... I hope Sony takes notice
NathansFortune
Regular
I've heard there could be a trade in scheme so that UMDs can be mailed in and a download code will be sent back by Sony.
Another reason Sony have kept straight PSP ISO's away from NGP is that it will allow an easy back route for piracy by having an ISO loader using the PSP master key. The downloaded games from the NGP PSN store will utilise the new NGP key.
I think a time limited solution could work, i.e. for the first year that NGP is out Sony will have the trade-in program, and anyone who has UMDs can trade them in for codes to be used on NGP or PSP.
It does depend on Sony getting every single UMD game onto the PSN store, but that is a stated goal of theirs.
D
Deleted member 13524
Guest
The Playstation Suite is a gaming platform for selected Android devices.
For now, it's just a PSOne emulator that works with multi-touch Android handhelds (something like Nokia's nGadge 2.0), but it could evolve into something more interesting in the future.
It's not related to NGP\PSP2 in any way, though.
Yeah, we heard the same for the PSP-Go customer, back in 2009.
Didn't happen.
So either PSP2 runs Android binaries (possibly signed in some way), or the PS Suite is a multi-platform frameworkplaystation.com said:
@Farid: Im European, hard to get my fingers on an 8-track. I will be sanding of the bits and bytes aslong as the PSP can run run them.
