Lucid_Dreamer
Veteran
Official GT5 discussion thread
- Thread starter nightshade
- Start date
ihamoitc2005
Veteran
GT5 S3D Mode
Per eye performance is similar to NFS Shift 2. I hope next time they use MLAA. This makes more RAM free and also GPU rendering speed.
Benefit of S3D is each eye sees completely different image. No pixels are same.
Totally different information.
Angle to light is different.
Angle to polygons is different.
Sense of depth and distance is better
Able to see much more total information than 2D.
Some people cannot see true 3D so for those who are complaining this might be their problem.
In lab tests, people even have faster response time with S3D image. For shooter type game, additional benefit is ability to see movement sooner, ability to see and react to objects that would be hidden in 2D view, and better ability to differentiate materials, camo, etc.
Per eye performance is similar to NFS Shift 2. I hope next time they use MLAA. This makes more RAM free and also GPU rendering speed.
Benefit of S3D is each eye sees completely different image. No pixels are same.
Totally different information.
Angle to light is different.
Angle to polygons is different.
Sense of depth and distance is better
Able to see much more total information than 2D.
Some people cannot see true 3D so for those who are complaining this might be their problem.
In lab tests, people even have faster response time with S3D image. For shooter type game, additional benefit is ability to see movement sooner, ability to see and react to objects that would be hidden in 2D view, and better ability to differentiate materials, camo, etc.
I have been surprised by B-Spec..
But as it often is, nothing is good without having a bad side.. first the bad, i think it can be really boring if there isn´t a fight , and finally made it to the endurance races.. i have learned that the winnings after a 1 hour and 45 min race is.. small
However the races can be very exciting, and it´s rewarding to win a tight race where you have to balance the pressure on your driver with the chance of him spinning out. As you go through the events the cars you win range from useless to awesome, but the money is always good
But the surprise is that i found myself watching these races with way more interest than i expected , to some extent it is like watching real races and the battles can be fierce in the field
But as it often is, nothing is good without having a bad side.. first the bad, i think it can be really boring if there isn´t a fight , and finally made it to the endurance races.. i have learned that the winnings after a 1 hour and 45 min race is.. small
However the races can be very exciting, and it´s rewarding to win a tight race where you have to balance the pressure on your driver with the chance of him spinning out. As you go through the events the cars you win range from useless to awesome, but the money is always good
But the surprise is that i found myself watching these races with way more interest than i expected , to some extent it is like watching real races and the battles can be fierce in the field
According to some people who have tried 3D they said that the experience with the right 3D settings is great. There are some compromises but those are passable. Actually I am amazed by the quality they managed to maintain in 3D considering what the game is doing.
Just to get an idea 720p 2xAA is how Forza3 runs during gameplay with less cars and effects. Thats quite a feat for GT5 which can have up to 16 cars on screen, more detailed models (Referring to premium), dust/snow/rain effects on top of other stuff we cant actually see with our eyes such as wind pdirection etc.
I wouldn't still mind the 3d mode with 2 ps3's as an options so there would be practically no compromise and no additional fps dips
Even better would be if Sony added "sli" option to ps3 sdk so any game could support 3d via 2 ps3's with minimal fuss and highest quality. A good way to prolong this gen and drive in 3d adoption among enthusiasts.I wouldn't still mind the 3d mode with 2 ps3's as an options so there would be practically no compromise and no additional fps dips
Yeah that would have been awesome
Lucid_Dreamer
Veteran
I wouldn't still mind the 3d mode with 2 ps3's as an options so there would be practically no compromise and no additional fps dips
Wouldn't that require a different set of assets and code for a higher quality 720p S3D experience beyond better AA and framerate?
The idea is not to create better 3d but rather reach parity between 3d and 2d mode.
creating separate 2d and 3d mode on single console requires separate codepaths as 3d mode basicly is 2 times the work for everything(unoptimized case) or 2 times the work for all visible geometry(best possible case). In both cases 3d mode is substantially more work and leads to compromised graphics if compared to just 2d mode.
Typically game engine either lowers AA, resolution, LOD or FPS(or combination of those or other compromises) to go from great 2d mode to acceptable true 3d mode where visible stuff was really rendered twice. What I would want to achieve with dual ps3 setup is that there would be no need for those compromises.
Basicly what I'm saying make a framework that:
Run the exact same code on both consoles for each frame (master and slave)
Take the input(pad, wheel, network, move, whatever external input there is in the game) from master console and sync it to slave(hence both consoles are on identical state)
Render the view from different eyes on each console
Pack and transfer rendered image from slave to master
Master merges rendered frames and outputs true 720p 3d without compromises
So the framework would provide the input synchronization and rendered images merging and output and then some... Game developer would hook his 2d game to these api's and non compromised 3d mode would be quite easy. Ofcourse it's not this easy(lag in syncing, performance needed for input syncing and frame merging) but it would not be too difficult.
This way basicly the 2d and 3d mode will run identical codepaths and resources except for syncing the input coming from master console and merging the rendered images. Not much extra work needed from the developer.
Ofcourse it would be possible to enhance the 3d rendering further by distributing more work among the consoles but that would then potentially be substantially more work and reworking the whole game engine.
Also there is the possibility to do postprocessing to generate 3d images but I would forget that in this context where we discuss 3d rendering with multiple ps3 machines.
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ShadowRunner
Veteran
The problem is the framerate. If its something your not particularly sensitive to then its not an issue but for me it was too much of a sacrifice. Now if i had to chose between 2D or 3D it may be different but for me the 2D->3D conversion on my TV is a good middleground so i tend to go with that.
I wish they would come out with a PS3D, that played all the same games but with uncomprimised 3D. Not a full console relaunch just a premium SKU for those that want it.
For the lower hanging fruit I don't see much if any significant difference between rendering 3d or higher quality 2d. I assume engine is kept simple and not reworked to really distribute properly calculations over multiple machines. For high quality 2d case I assume each console calculates everything but might at rasterization cull so that only the part of screen belonging to that consoles output is drawn.
Engine would either render the scene twice == 3d or render it once with higher resolution or twice with same resolution and stitch both frames together in post processing. I suppose 4 consoles together and each rendering let's say in 720p would give nice 4x SSAA or perhaps each console would render in 960x540 and master would spit out proper 1080p
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Can't they "just" render alternate frames for both 2D and 3D modes ? That should give Cell + RSX double the time to complete their work. May be good enough to maintain the parity between 3D and "old" 2D, plus beef up the 2D mode ?
That's pretty much what I'm saying, sync the state and render same frame twice with different camera matrix. Or did I misunderstand something?
I would really prefer to have this real 3d not some gimmick on post processing which will inevitably create more artifacts. You really want to render the same frame on both consoles/eyes not the frame n and n+1 for 3d as otherwise the scenery has moved and your brain most likely will figure out something is wrong in the 3d image. Movement in one frame (1/60s) when car is going 100km/h would be about 46cm which is quite significant distance for the the frame to be off. Another thing is that the parallel solution doesn't add much lag to rendering.
I wouldn't expect it to be very difficult to create framework enabling both 3d rendering and higher resolution rendering support using multiple consoles. 3d rendering would be almost workfree but higher resolution rendering will require more work as all the rasterizing and rendertargets needs to support tiling to some extent(assuming we divide screen to tiles which each console renders). Tiling should be pretty easy if we are just picking the low hanging fruit as the engine would just need to reconfigure render targets and cull triangles not hitting the drawn area. Tiling for optimal performance and avoiding "extra work" would be different story if we were to utilize multiple consoles optimally.
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How do you get the picture on the TV?
Main PS3 farms out jobs to secondary, but what about the state etc, does that not impact what to render, ie controller input etc.
I assume that the main PS3 must send it to the secondary, then the secondary does the work and sends it back again and then the main sends it to the TV.
How much delay does the network connecting add here, not just a ping, but data needs to be packed/unpacked moved/manipulated etc.
I actually think its easier with multiscreen because then the main PS3 only sends commands/data 1 way. No real need for the other PS3s to send much info back.
Main PS3 farms out jobs to secondary, but what about the state etc, does that not impact what to render, ie controller input etc.
I assume that the main PS3 must send it to the secondary, then the secondary does the work and sends it back again and then the main sends it to the TV.
How much delay does the network connecting add here, not just a ping, but data needs to be packed/unpacked moved/manipulated etc.
I actually think its easier with multiscreen because then the main PS3 only sends commands/data 1 way. No real need for the other PS3s to send much info back.
Billy Idol
Legend
breakdown of GT sales:
http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/list.html
seems like GT5 sold over 6 million copies so far...which is good, right?
(all this how many sales needed for success make me nervous)
http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/list.html
seems like GT5 sold over 6 million copies so far...which is good, right?
(all this how many sales needed for success make me nervous
)
breakdown of GT sales:
http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/list.html
seems like GT5 sold over 6 million copies so far...which is good, right?
(all this how many sales needed for success make me nervous
If there was any question on that GT is now a primarily European thing:
Europe – 3.97 million.
U.S. - 1.58 million
Asia - 230,000
Also, apparently these figures are up to and including December ...
It's absolutely trivial to compress the image rendered by farm, send to master ps3 that decompresses the images, composes 3d image and sends final image to tv. If one is going to buy multiple ps3's to play gt5 in 3d it's not a big extra investment to network those machines.
Delay would be pretty minimal if you assume local 100MBit or 1Gig router. Definitely much less than what your tv, controlller and other game processing/components add to it. I think the pad controller alone is over 15msec delay.
Similarly it's not a big deal for the master ps3 to sync controller input, network traffic and so on. In comparison you will have so much lag from online play alone that the local overhead for syncing two or more ps3 machines is not a significant consideration.
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GT4 US was half of GT4 EU.
Asia's GT5 6-week sales has already passed GT4 lifetime sales in Asia.
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