Why everyone should stop folding and go SETI

[Ilfirin]

Just to reiterate the central point of my first post:

While it is virtually a statistical fact that there's other life out there in the universe, it is just as, or more so, likely that all of humanity will die off and become extinct long before any communication can be made between that life (1-way or not). So it's a bit of an irrelevant question.

[edit]Which brings up another interesting point: If SETI were to ever receive a radio wave from an alien species, by the time we received that wave it is most likely that the race which sent it would already be dead.

 

[Natoma]

You can pass waveforms or information at rates higher than speed, but you can't pass matter faster than light.

If there's one thing science has taught us through the centuries, never, ever, say can't.

Theoretically it is possible to accelerate matter faster than the speed of light. Not by directly accelerating the matter itself, but by warping the surrounding space, which has no mass, and accelerating that, while letting the ship ride that warped space like a surf board.

And we haven't even discussed other "FTL" travel mechanisms such as wormholes which are theoretically possible as well.

 

[Natoma]

Ceasing the search for life simply because the odds that life at roughly the same level of development, intelligence, and communications ability exists in the universe, within communicable distance, are slim, is a bad reason to do so. Even if we receive a signal and that life is now extinguished, the point remains that we'd have proof that intelligent life has existed elsewhere in this universe.

I'd liken it to finding dinosaur bones in the ground. Sure they have no "purpose" today, but they expand our knowledge and enrich our species, even if we can't communicate with them.

Anyways, there is life on other planets. Life, even on our own planet, has shown itself quite capable of sustaining itself in every conceivable condition. There are life forms that metabolise iron and sulphur in the deepest depths of the ocean near volcanic fissures. There are life forms that live in the coldest regions of antarctica, or the hottest regions of the sahara. Life forms that never see the sun, yet synthesize chemicals such as methane and create entire food chains based off that.

Frankly I have high hopes for the exploration of Europa. A vast ocean warmed and cooled by Jupiter's powerful magnetic field could be a veritable cornucopia of life. Even if it isn't "intelligent" by our standards, the fact that it exists would be a strong enough push to get us deeper into space imo, which is where we're going to need to be anyways in order to sustain our ever growing population.

 

[Ilfirin]

Anyways, there is life on other planets. Life, even on our own planet, has shown itself quite capable of sustaining itself in every conceivable condition. There are life forms that metabolise iron and sulphur in the deepest depths of the ocean near volcanic fissures. There are life forms that live in the coldest regions of antarctica, or the hottest regions of the sahara. Life forms that never see the sun, yet synthesize chemicals such as methane and create entire food chains based off that.

Yes, but none of that even remotely compares to having your entire planet destroyed, or your, along with all those nearby, solar system being destroyed when its sun dies out. Entire galaxies are destroyed all the time and more are born from the reminants. Our own sun is expected to go in a relatively short amount of time (few million years), taking with it the entire solar system. While it is a very remote possibility that we will manage to find (and, even harder, move all humanity to there) another planet able to sustain human life before we all die, it's quite unlikely. And even then, galaxies don't last forever (nor do universes).

Frankly I have high hopes for the exploration of Europa. A vast ocean warmed and cooled by Jupiter's powerful magnetic field could be a veritable cornucopia of life. Even if it isn't "intelligent" by our standards, the fact that it exists would be a strong enough push to get us deeper into space imo, which is where we're going to need to be anyways in order to sustain our ever growing population.

Just for the record, I never stated we should stop searching, but SETI isn't the way, or at least, Folding@Home is a much more valid usage of our CPU power. If we were to ever find life that was actually still alive, it would have to be pretty damn close (like, in this solar system) and thus the effort should be directed at setting up human outposts all over this solar system to allow full exploration of it.

 

[pcchen]

Finding ET may be important, but not more important than folding proteins IMHO. I'll give a simple reason behind this:

Finding ET is a very long term project. Even if some alien life forms are found, we still need to find a good way to communicate with them, that takes even more time. On the other hand, if we can put more effort on protein research and make some new drugs one year earlier, we may save thousands or more people's life. Finding an ET one year earlier has no apparent benefit.

Furthermore, the idea about aliens can solve every problem on earth is quite stupid. They don't know us, they don't understand our social structure. You can't solve every problem of the ant nest near your house, so does the alien. And they may be just uninterested with us. Why should they care about some strange lifeforms thousands light years away?

I still think it's important to do space exploration and finding ET, just as Natoma said. However, it shoudn't be more important than protein folding, or other human related research.

 

[Sticky]

KILER, r u for real?
i don't post here a lot, but god u say a lot of stupid things... which aint a bad thing in itself, mind u...

just listen to Humus and leave science fiction to science fiction threads... otherwise, get a book, read it, then come back.

there are MANY theories about everything, and the theory of a Multiverse (a universe made of an infinite number of universes coexisting in parallel dimensions) is just that, a theory. moreover, that theory is clear about the fact that it would be nearly impossible to communicate between parallel universes. therefore the universe u live in IS finite. the fact that there MIGHT be other universes out there doesn't mean anything. they exists in other realities. and they could be so different that existance there would be impossible for us (think 2D universes, universes without Protons etc).

u really should read some books on this, personally i EAT cosmology books, i'm just hooked. they provide a good deal of information and make u understand that THEORIES are just THEORIES. like i could say men come from Mars (which i think is also an "official" theory). but thats a theory.

what books? I enjoy reading about this as well. I wouldnt mind picking some thing up.

Sticky

 

[notAFanB]

So, this universe is infinite and yet you expect no life other than ourselves in it? That's a very narrow view.

The universe is most likely finite.

and possibly unbounded....see u on the other side 8)

Theoretically it is possible to accelerate matter faster than the speed of light. Not by directly accelerating the matter itself, but by warping the surrounding space, which has no mass, and accelerating that, while letting the ship ride that warped space like a surf board.

so is that faster than the Speed of light or not?

You can pass waveforms or information at rates higher than speed, but you can't pass matter faster than light.

are u refering to the quantum spin effect and EPR paradox here?

 

[Silent_One]

Natoma wrote:

Theoretically it is possible to accelerate matter faster than the speed of light. Not by directly accelerating the matter itself, but by warping the surrounding space, which has no mass, and accelerating that, while letting the ship ride that warped space like a surf board.

IIRC general-relativity says that matter can not be accelerated to the speed of light. It does not say that matter cannot go faster than the speed of light, just not the speed of light. So accelerating matter from a speed slower than light to a speed faster than light is impossible. (Maybe just semantics but..... )

Ilfirin wrote:

Our own sun is expected to go in a relatively short amount of time (few million years), taking with it the entire solar system.

Wrong. Our sun is at about middle life and shall last a few more billion years. I think we still have time to figure out how to get to another planet able to sustain human life in time

 

[Humus]

That's a big if there Humus.
Scientists are not 100% sure of anything. What would happen if all the current theories of how the universe started were proved false?
What would people say if we lived in a finite universe with infinite realities built into it making the universe infinite?
Sort of like expanding the universe's depth.

Well, like everything, chances are that everything is indeed false. There's this philosophical question about whether what we through our sense think is real may actually be nothing but the senses playing us a game. The reality may be something completely different than what our senses tells us. I think it was Platon who first came up with the idea, and the question is still valid and was kinda renewed in the Matrix movie.

In the end of it all though, the search for Aliens are like the search for God. It's more or less a new kind of religion. Humans are fundamentally spiritual, and once they lost their faith in God they need to look into the heavens for other things.

 

[Humus]

You can pass waveforms or information at rates higher than speed, but you can't pass matter faster than light.

If there's one thing science has taught us through the centuries, never, ever, say can't.

Well, true, but for now we have ever reason to believe that we can't.

 

[Humus]

Ceasing the search for life simply because the odds that life at roughly the same level of development, intelligence, and communications ability exists in the universe, within communicable distance, are slim, is a bad reason to do so. Even if we receive a signal and that life is now extinguished, the point remains that we'd have proof that intelligent life has existed elsewhere in this universe.

I'd liken it to finding dinosaur bones in the ground. Sure they have no "purpose" today, but they expand our knowledge and enrich our species, even if we can't communicate with them.

Frankly, I think it's an incredible waste of resources into a project that's highly unlikely to ever give any return. There are much more useful stuff that we could spend the same resources on, for instance folding, that we could very likely benefit from in a short time frame.

 

[Humus]

You can pass waveforms or information at rates higher than speed, but you can't pass matter faster than light.

are u refering to the quantum spin effect and EPR paradox here?

Honestly I don't know, I'm certainly not an expert in this area, but every report of the "faster than light" kind has always been that something else, such as a waveform or information, rather than real physical objects has been transferred at rates higher than the speed of light. In all cases, the actual objects or matter has had a speed below the speed of light.

 

[notAFanB]

Honestly I don't know, I'm certainly not an expert in this area, but every report of the "faster than light" kind has always been that something else, such as a waveform or information, rather than real physical objects has been transferred at rates higher than the speed of light. In all cases, the actual objects or matter has had a speed below the speed of light.

the reason I am asking is that bar a few quantum phenomena everthing thing else fits relitivity rather nicely. so that not even information between 'things' can occur FTL (non-simulataneous events as such).

of course I failed high school physics so........

 

[Ilfirin]

Ilfirin wrote:

Our own sun is expected to go in a relatively short amount of time (few million years), taking with it the entire solar system.

Wrong. Our sun is at about middle life and shall last a few more billion years. I think we still have time to figure out how to get to another planet able to sustain human life in time

Right, I meant to say billion (hey, only off by a factor of 1000 ). I'd expect there to be a catastrophic event to happen to the Earth long before that though that'd whipe off most of the life on the planet, but by then I'm sure we'd have outposts on or orbiting other planets/moons in the solar system anyway (though I wonder how an outpost would survive without the constant source of food, water and oxygen being shipped to it from the Earth)

 

[Natoma]

Theoretically it is possible to accelerate matter faster than the speed of light. Not by directly accelerating the matter itself, but by warping the surrounding space, which has no mass, and accelerating that, while letting the ship ride that warped space like a surf board.

so is that faster than the Speed of light or not?

It's considered a loophole that would allow FTL travel through "conventional" means, i.e. no worm/black holes, hyperspace, etc

 

[Natoma]

Natoma wrote:

Theoretically it is possible to accelerate matter faster than the speed of light. Not by directly accelerating the matter itself, but by warping the surrounding space, which has no mass, and accelerating that, while letting the ship ride that warped space like a surf board.

IIRC general-relativity says that matter can not be accelerated to the speed of light. It does not say that matter cannot go faster than the speed of light, just not the speed of light. So accelerating matter from a speed slower than light to a speed faster than light is impossible. (Maybe just semantics but..... )

*cough* splitting hairs *cough*

That's why folding space into a bubble and accelerating that bubble would not cause any relativistic problems. Relative to the space your ship occupies, you aren't moving at all, thus you are not violating relativistic light speed limit.

Nice and neat loophole.

 

[notAFanB]

It's considered a loophole that would allow FTL travel through "conventional" means, i.e. no worm/black holes, hyperspace, etc

I know but the net velocity of the body in question is zero? did it travel FTL or not?

Nice and neat loophole.

it would be a loophole if FTL of the body in question were so.

 

[Natoma]

notAfanB,

That's why folding space into a bubble and accelerating that bubble would not cause any relativistic problems. Relative to the space your ship occupies, you aren't moving at all, thus you are not violating relativistic light speed limit.

That's why warping space is probably our best bet imo at moving through the universe at FTL speeds while not violating relativity.

 

[notAFanB]

ah right gotcha.

That's why warping space is probably our best bet imo at moving through the universe at FTL speeds while not violating relativity.

considering the levels of Mass/Energy we need to warp spacetime I dun find that paticularly comforting

 

[DemoCoder]

The fact that the universe is large and has so many stars does not mean life is plentiful or probable, especially if you mean "like us" (self replicating organic molecules) There's a whole list of prerequisites: solar system not choked in dust, enough high level elements available (meaning many supernovas had to happen in the area to give us more than helium), star like sun in the middle of it's main sequence, planet with neccessary conditions...

And we haven't even started with the probability of abiogenesis.


Also referring to the number of species on earth is irrelevent. Those all share a common ancestry, and with the exception of human beings, none of them are "intelligent", that is, smart enough to develop technology, written language, etc